Sub adults-add housing?

[C.C.Martins]

Question for the group.

Has anyone added housing for subadults when they show? If so what happened? Did they relent on their destruction?

I can see plusses, they will have a home and not try to disrupt an active nest.

Negatives, probably only good for one or two seasons.

For years iv saved two or 3 cavities for them, yet relent and open them and are quickly claimed by ASY.

Reason I'm asking is first Rob lost alot of chicks and it started a spark. Second is watching subbies tear up, and harass chicks close to fledging while the adults trying to feed them. Last straw for me was watching a subbie inspect, go in and out of an active nest (female lost her mate) of 4 21 day old chicks and bring a green leaf for the subbie female he has in tow. I walked over and he dropped it.

I can add 5 next season, think I will. Not now, too late in the season down here.

Does it actually work?

[Conrad Baker]

I would definitely add more housing, but maybe wait until next year. My season is almost over with most birds gone. The adult birds that nested with you this year will return next year, along with all the newly hatched birds. They will all be looking for someplace next year. Not sure if that's what you asked.

[Jones4381]

Never been in your shoes where I'm full racks and had to add housing but I can attest to the subs have grown the colony here by about 35% this year. With around 50 or the 60 full activity with laying, sitting, and chicks it was pretty crazy the last 3-4 weeks. I can't prove it but pretty sure i had some eggs removed and housing messed up due to the sub adults in at least 2 gourds where chicks disappeared and eggs went missing in other gourds. It's mostly calmed down now and doing nest checks today as almost all gourds are hatching or will be in next 10 days. Oldest chicks around 18-20 days old so I'm all over the board.

In the end, even with the disruption and chaos they cause they have significantly grown the colony this year and I would expect by next season I'll see all 60 full and be pondering the very question you're asking now. Sounds like overall you're having another great season but we expect no less from our wiley veterans like you in here sir! Take care and hope the season finishes well for ya.

EDIT: My first update of the year to the group to let everyone know how VA is doing. 54 of 60 gourds with eggs/babies 2 others with NL and 4 blanks. 98 babies so far to 97 eggs to go (sure there are some other duds I didn't count covered up in active hatchling nest) 3 cycles going on here. 1st hatchlings struggling alot of 1 or 2 babies that had 5-6 eggs (had some cold weather that may have lowered hatching survival rates) 2nd group doing great alot of 1-5 day old pinkies that are in the 4-6 column. Then its the 4th rack with mostly eggs and nesting mothers but with the oldest of all younglings with 6 at 23 days old estimated to fledge soon. Good luck to everyone the rest of the season. always enjoy reading up on everyone's post. fingers crossed as I've been here before and lost 75% of the babies due to weather....hoping for avg weather next 35+ days. Looking forward to hearing from LA/TX/FL final counts once you guys wrap up soon. rest of us in the smack dag middle of the season right now.

[C.C.Martins]

Thanks guys, as I sit in my "blind" watching martins the subbies are certainly active. Used to be (i think) they would "play house" when the adults took their chicks away for the day. They would then claim the gourd until mom and dad came back and set things right. Now, they aren't waiting. And yes some chicks and eggs missing, not many but enough.

I know how very important they are to the overall health, 2 male subbies happily took over for some lost ASY males, and the new blood is vital to a colony in my humble opinion. They want to nest too, I get it.

I'm going to give it a shot next season.

Been a very good season, top 2 of them all (number one was when they showed up the very first year), big nests, mother nature cooperated, i got to help some of the good folks here which I enjoy immensely, made a very good friend and helped a new landlord close by...she is the proud landlord of a subbie pair and her first chick!

10 maybe 12 nests left to fledge and its a wrap. Some seasons its with relief that they made it, this one is going to be tough dealing with the silence.

Thanks again guys,
Tom

[Jones4381]

Thanks guys, as I sit in my "blind" watching martins the subbies are certainly active. Used to be (i think) they would "play house" when the adults took their chicks away for the day. They would then claim the gourd until mom and dad came back and set things right. Now, they aren't waiting. And yes some chicks and eggs missing, not many but enough.

I know how very important they are to the overall health, 2 male subbies happily took over for some lost ASY males, and the new blood is vital to a colony in my humble opinion. They want to nest too, I get it.

I'm going to give it a shot next season.

Been a very good season, top 2 of them all (number one was when they showed up the very first year), big nests, mother nature cooperated, i got to help some of the good folks here which I enjoy immensely, made a very good friend and helped a new landlord close by...she is the proud landlord of a subbie pair and her first chick!

10 maybe 12 nests left to fledge and its a wrap. Some seasons its with relief that they made it, this one is going to be tough dealing with the silence.

Thanks again guys,
Tom

You guys that's been at it awhile remind me of the song Who's gonna feel their shoes' by the great G. Jones. I first read articles written by your fellow Texan John Barrow and tried to mimic alot of his ideas. you my friend are Mr. Barrow's successor and providing the aid and support to many of us in here, along with the birds. Always enjoy Dave Reynolds, Randy way up north, Rob's incessant battles with Hawks, Brent, and so on and so on...it's nice having others in the 'fox hole' with you even if its' 1000's of miles away. Reading others accolades and losses makes it bearable while we share our and their life cycle and teaching us about each others in the process (It's very short no matter if you're a swallow or a human so make the most of it, leave it better than you found it, help something along the way, and you might find life's real meaning has been my exp). It's a privilege to observe it and to participate in it....I think that's the reward...Giving back something no matter the scale. Peace bro and looking forward to your final recaps of the season and sage advice during the flow of the message board.

Ps. Sorry if I left off any names but i read almost all the post during the late Jan to early September time frame and many of you are very active in here with equally great stories and opinions from your experiences that I've enjoyed....keep it up it makes difference!

[C.C.Martins]

Sir,
Kind words to me and us all indeed. Thank you!
However, once you've met, and spoken to Mr Barrow you know there really is only one giant and in my humble opinion that is him and his lovely wife Louise in one big purple martin partnership. Im not close.

Giving back no matter the scale, thats good, very good. Applies to us sir. Strikes a cord too, I said this has been a wonderful season and it has...but my God the scale. The fledgling colony was beset by first house sparrows, ST1 and time took care of that.
Then the hill got steeper, the starlings came...the starling pressure there is out of this world. Breached all the crescent entrances, like water...even with WEPS over top. The martins lost 2 eggs and their nest to them. Many, many trips over there.
Phil (member here and a wonderful landlord) sent those excluder gourds, so was able to conduct my unofficial study with a captive starling in all 24.
So fixed that for her, adjustments worked. Until it didn't. Again.
Resorted to some drastic measures I won't mention to get rid of them. Involved velocity.
Porches raised, weps over top, swapped all her gourds with Phil's and wala martins came back, they have 1 fat chick and others checking out her cavities...even now. Starling nest cycle is over. Relief for the martins.
All this on top of 51 pairs at the preserve, 34 here at home and 12 at my neighbors. Been a busy, busy season.
Giving back, yes I like that.

Finally, I like you seeing with your ears. I like that alot, going to introduce closing eyes to a friend at work, right under the martin colony. He takes on alot of stress. Thank you!
Best
Tom

[Martintown33]

Hi Tom.. it’s probably a good idea.. but as you said, in 2 or 3 years, then those will be full.. then you’re right back to square one.. I don’t see a solution, except to to keep expanding compartments every year, which isn’t feasible for most.. all accounts I’ve been getting from landlords near me, is that they’ve had more martins this year thanever before.. same at my site.. I think this is the reason for the increase in the SY killings… they are trying to reduce competition.. as you said, they want to nest too..
Rob

[C.C.Martins]

You had a rough go Rob, not to mention your chicks, who had it worse.

I think ill gently nudge my neighbor to go 18 vs 12, he is interested but a nudge doesn't hurt. That will provide some relief. Iv decided to go 18 up 24 on one rack, 16 still on the other and add 3 to the house. + of 9, at my place, +6 down the street, just for subbies. See what happens. Most ill ever do, and may downsize after next season.

[Martintown33]

Hey tom. That’s quite a number of added housing. That should definitely help with the SY issue for a few years for sure. The problem I have is the ASY pairs that hold on to 2 gourds. I had 3 pairs hold onto 3 extra gourds thus season. They build full nests in both and defend both. One SY against a pair of ASYs is too much for the SY to win. So later, when the parents have to leave to hunt food for the young, that’s when the SYs kick into action. Removing the young while the parents aren’t there to defend.. if the ASYs wouldn’t hold onto 2 gourds, then it wouldn’t be as bad of a problem. But seems like you will be good to go for a while.
Rob

[C.C.Martins]

Good gosh really?? That is really an outstanding observation. Yes, they would not stand a chance. One pair here held 3 gourds, but it slowly whittled down to one. Now they are paying the price, their nest is one of the last to fledge. All on the female, she led the charge.

Well see Rob, may only do it one season. My neighbors tree is just getting bigger. The rack in back is doomed.
Then down to 24 and keep it like that. 68 cavities at the preserve and hopefully my neighbors 18, ill be busy enough.

[Martintown33]

Tom.. yep, that should keep
You busy enough!
.. about the tree getting bigger.. I had an old man in my neighborhood. He had a plywood Martin house that was on top of a very high pole that could not be lowered. It was there for many years. An elm tree had completely engulfed the house and the pole.. The plywood house was literally falling apart. Half the roof was gone. But the martins had been going to that house for 20 years. And even totally engulfed by a big tree and falling apart, the martins returned every year to nest in it…I would drive by, and couldn’t believe that the martins were nesting in a tree like that.. Goes to show how strong their site fidelity is. They kept returning to that house until a hurricane knocked it down. Amazing.
Rob

[Bird Brain]

Only my second season and I'm very disappointed in Subbies. They show up so late, that their chicks are destined to suffer through more heat related tragedy. Their fledge rate suffers as a result. I've already seen a chick mangled and murdered, lying underneath the pole. They build crappy nests or no nest at all. They lay eggs and then abandon the nest. I used to think it a good idea to save a couple cavities for them, to extend my season. But now, my goal is to fill up with ASY as soon as possible to reduce the population of subbies. Maybe a colony of mostly ASY will help keep the Subbies in check.

[C.C.Martins]

Rob,

No kidding??! They nested like that? Good lord. Well that is interesting...hmmmmmm!!!! Thanks Rob!

Bird Brain,
They are inexperienced, and it shows. Everything you said is right, except the ASYs keeping them in check. They will still do their dirty tricks. By the time they show, iv no cavities left.
Only subbies nesting now took over from a lost adult male.

Next season we have got to remember this thread and see how it all went!