Super mites?

[Martintown33]

This is a new thread based on my “ old sevin dust” post… if you’ve read my other post on this subject, we’ll, I’m 9 days in to this mite infestation fight, now.. did the 9th consecutive nest check today on the 3 to 4 infested gourds.. my other house compartments and gourds have no mites.. 2 of the 4 infested gourds are almost clear, but I’m still seeing mites in them.. but 2 that only had a few , now are totally infested.. I’ve tried new liquid sevin, avian insect liquidator solution, old sevin dust, new sevin dust, and permethrin poultry dust , and I still have infested gourds.. I did a complete nest change out today on the 2 that are now badly infested.. cleaned with liquid sevin, re dusted and put in new pine needles.. I’ve never had mites that wouldn’t die from re dusting treatment, in the 27 years I’ve been hosting martins.. I’ve never heard of this.. mites that just won’t die… it’s been 9 days of treatments so the 7 day mite egg cycle should be broken.. I’ve never had an infestation nearly this bad ever.. even before I used no pesticides at all.. man, are these super mites that have developed resistance to pesticides.. this is insane.. nothing kills them..anybody ever heard of anything like this?
Rob

[Conrad Baker]

Is it possible that the birds are carrying them to the nest?? Could be you are killing the ones there, but when the birds come back to the nest, the mites are moving into the nest and housing so they are the ones you are seeing?

[C.C.Martins]

Agree, you tackled the mites but think your carriers are the adults. If the subbies are entering gourds, could be them too. Our subbies scratch and im sure are itching.

[Martintown33]

I think yall are probably on the right track with your answers. I’ve been thinking something similar but y’all’s answers have confirmed what I thought it may be. There’s a martin house about 1/3 mile from me. On a metal pole. Can’t be lowered. It has hosps living in it year round. Nesting and breeding. Never has been lowered or cleaned or treated for mites , for sure. There are 2 Martin pairs in that house this season. I see them flying over , getting on my perches , and scratching like crazy. They must be mite bombing the gourds directly below. Those are the infested ones. The mites are all over the outside of the gourds as well as the insides.. So yep, I think you’re right. I must be killing the mites every day, only to have them re-infested by the infested martins every morning and evening , when they come over here and preen. But it doesn’t seem like that would have a gourd completely infested. When I dumped the old nest out into a bucket , there were thousands of mites, on the bottom of the bucket. That nest had been dusted daily with 3 different dusts, and still had that many mites living in it??? Usually one redusting will kill any mites that are in there. Even if other birds are bringing them in, it seems like the mites would die from the dust in the nest and the dried liquid Sevin on the walls. But they just walk around like there’s no pesticide in there at all..
I’m going to have to rearrange my perch set up for next season, so they aren’t directly over my housing,.. and go treat and clean that idiots Martin house before the start of every season. And a couple times during the season. What a moron!
Thanks for the replies. Confirms what I thought the source might be.. but still don’t understand why they aren’t dying once they are in the treated nest.
Rob

[C.C.Martins]

What about your adults Rob? Perhaps a combination?

How old are the chicks?

Mite bomb!!! Too funny, I imagine the same thing when watching some of these guys!

Wonder if its worth asking to buy it off season and toss the old house. I do it, bought a beat up trio recently, couldnt stand the thought of it being used for sparrows.

[Martintown33]

Hi tom.. the chicks in the 4 affected gourds range from 27 to 16 days old. One of them will fledge soon. So that’s good.. I did the nest change today, on the 16 day old gourd today.
.. I guess it’s possible that my adults could be bringing some in. But all Martins have mites. That’s why we dust the nests. So any mites that come off the adults, into the nest , are continually being killed and stops infestations. Thats why this doesn’t make sense. I haven’t had an infestation since I started using sevin dust. The mites in the nest should be dying daily, not multiplying like this situation . It makes no sense..
.. as far as that guys Martin house.. I guess I could ask him if I could buy it, and then just trash it. I remember him saying his wife likes to watch the “birds” from the kitchen window. He hasn’t a clue … doesn’t know the difference between a hosp, a martin or a frieking great blue heron. Typical idiot.. just put up a bird house and let it become a hosp factory and a mite infested torture chamber for any bird nesting in it. Moron!
Rob

[Martintown33]

Update: I lowered the housing/gourd racks so that they are about 3 to 4 feet below the perch rods now.. nest check of the infested gourds, today, were very much better.. just a few straggler mites, on the walls, that I killed with a damp rag of sevin liquid. I hope lowering the racks will keep the gourds far enough away to prevent mite bombs, from preening martins , on the perch rods, above.. nothing like doing a nest check on 28 day old fledglings to get the heart pumping.. had to be super careful so none could escape through the access port, while I worked, making sure to keep my hand over the hole.. one almost escaped when i quickly removed my hand to put the cap back on..
..My plan for next year, is to eliminate the slide through perch rods, at the top of the pole, and build a 16 to 18 foot high, perch rod center, about 5 yards from the housing racks.. that should eliminate any mite bomb preening issues, going forward..
thanks for the replies,
Rob

[brent]

Glad to hear. So the dust that you used (the new Sevin and the poultry) are effective for controlling mites? I just need to know so I’m prepared for next season. Thanks and really happy to hear of your success. Brent

[C.C.Martins]

Rob,
Those birds are in excellent hands! Yes, I see your point and gosh can you imagine the fetid conditions in that house!

Hey, an idea (someone here thought of it, dont remember who-sorry)....make a nice bird house, paint it green and white, and make the holes a half inch. No birds will get in. Offer a swap, appeal to their sense of wanting to watch birds.

Yes, hahaha, older chicks will make the sweat pop out on you! Did a nest check today at the preserve, gourd right at my ear I could hear scrabbling and some big chicks...I had no plug! I was swating!

[Martintown33]

Hi Brent and tom…To tell you the truth , now I have no idea what works or doesn’t. I ended up using all 3. Old Sevin, new Sevin, and poultry dust (permethrin).. 1/8 tsp of each in the gourd nests since they are somewhat bigger than the back nesting rooms in my house compartments .. I used a cocktail of all 3 at the same time. And wiped the walls again with liquid Devin. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The mites were completely infested in the gourds. I ended up doing a complete nest change out on one of the infested gourds and then redusting it, with the cocktail before putting new pine needles in. I’m
Hoping the cocktail alone will keep the other 2 clear of mites. One of those has 28 day old fledglings and I can’t risk opening that one again and checking it. After they fledge in a day or 2, I will do a nest change out of that gourd, to make sure it stays clear of mites when they come back at night. Going forward I’m going to continue to use the 3 of them mixed in small amounts. They all have advantages and disadvantages over each other. So combined, in 1/2 tsp total will be what I use in the gourds, since they are somewhat bigger than the back nesting room in my houses.. so 1/8 to 1/4 tsp in house compartments.. the mixture of the 3, seems to be the best defense. I don’t want to ever have my martins go through that again or me to be elbow up, covered in mites.
P.S. further, to your question Brent. after the nest changeout, yesterday, I did a test of my old 4 year old, Sevin dust. When I took the old nest out of the bucket, there were hundreds of mites on the bottom of the bucket. I tested my old Sevin by dusting the bottom of the bucket. A few minutes later, the mites were dead. So this tells me that my 4 year old Sevin dust still had some potency. With that said, I’m going to go with the cocktail of all 3 used together, going forward. Also, the nests in the gourds are super thick.. it’s possible that dusting only at the bottom of the nest, was allowing a lot of the mites living at the top or middle portions of the nest to live and multiply. I know you don’t have gourds, so it may not apply to you, but I started putting the dust cocktail about an inch down from the top, of the nest and puffing it, with the dust puffer, instead of just at the bottom. . Maybe that has helped too.
Rob

[Bird Brain]

I know that everybody has different dosage recommendations regarding sevin. I've heard 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and even an entire teaspoon. Chucks purple martin page recommends an entire teaspoon of the old sevin. That's the advice I followed last year. I was considering trying a 1/2 teaspoon this year. 1/8 just doesn't seem like enough to me. It is a "dust." That's why landlords sprinkle it at the entryway by the door. I think when the adults walk on it, the dust gets kicked up into the air and settles on all of them, including the babies. And yes, some of that dust is being breathed in by all. But it is a very mild poison designed for birds and is unlikely to cause harm. I just don't see how 1/8 teaspoon can be enough to create that "dusting" effect that occurs when walked on by the adult birds. I think the new seven works fine but I believe more than 1/8 teaspoon is required. The only time I've used 1/8 teaspoon is when measuring cayenne pepper for something like Jambalaya. I'm actually scared to apply the dust dosage near the drainage holes. I'm scared the dust will exit the drainage hole while I'm raising the gourds and end up on ME. So I dust the entrance tunnel so they'll walk on it later and kick up the dust all over the nest after I've raised the gourds back up and gone.

[Martintown33]

Hi birdbrain. From my experiences this year, I think you’re correct that a relatively larger gourd compartment requires more dust than a 6x6 back or side nest room in a Martin house. Especially when a gourd has about 3 inch thick nests in it like mine do. 1/8 to 1/4 tsp in a thick gourd nest isn’t enough to be effective. I will start using about 1/2 to 3/4 tsp in gourds , scattered around on the bottom, and just under the surface, of the nests, then puffed with a dust puffer.
Rob

[Condorman]

Hi Brent and tom…To tell you the truth , now I have no idea what works or doesn’t. I ended up using all 3. Old Sevin, new Sevin, and poultry dust (permethrin).. 1/8 tsp of each in the gourd nests since they are somewhat bigger than the back nesting rooms in my house compartments .. I used a cocktail of all 3 at the same time. And wiped the walls again with liquid Devin. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The mites were completely infested in the gourds. I ended up doing a complete nest change out on one of the infested gourds and then redusting it, with the cocktail before putting new pine needles in. I’m
Hoping the cocktail alone will keep the other 2 clear of mites. One of those has 28 day old fledglings and I can’t risk opening that one again and checking it. After they fledge in a day or 2, I will do a nest change out of that gourd, to make sure it stays clear of mites when they come back at night. Going forward I’m going to continue to use the 3 of them mixed in small amounts. They all have advantages and disadvantages over each other. So combined, in 1/2 tsp total will be what I use in the gourds, since they are somewhat bigger than the back nesting room in my houses.. so 1/8 to 1/4 tsp in house compartments.. the mixture of the 3, seems to be the best defense. I don’t want to ever have my martins go through that again or me to be elbow up, covered in mites.
P.S. further, to your question Brent. after the nest changeout, yesterday, I did a test of my old 4 year old, Sevin dust. When I took the old nest out of the bucket, there were hundreds of mites on the bottom of the bucket. I tested my old Sevin by dusting the bottom of the bucket. A few minutes later, the mites were dead. So this tells me that my 4 year old Sevin dust still had some potency. With that said, I’m going to go with the cocktail of all 3 used together, going forward. Also, the nests in the gourds are super thick.. it’s possible that dusting only at the bottom of the nest, was allowing a lot of the mites living at the top or middle portions of the nest to live and multiply. I know you don’t have gourds, so it may not apply to you, but I started putting the dust cocktail about an inch down from the top, of the nest and puffing it, with the dust puffer, instead of just at the bottom. . Maybe that has helped too.
Rob

"Hi Rob... I just wondered if your "old Sevin Dust" is the "old" Sevin dust (apparently not available anymore) with the .5% Carbaryl? I think that's been replaced with the Sevin Dust called "The Garden Insect Dust" with 0.1% Bifenthrin by Garden Tech. Garden Tech also makes a Sevin Dust 5% Dust Bug Killer RTU Carbaryl in the same looking container as the previous Garden Tech Sevin dust which is .5% Bifenthrin. Then Martins makes a "Martins Viper Home and Garden Farm Insect Dust (for poultry) with .025% Permethrin. I have some of the old Sevin Dust 5% with .5% Carbaryl by Garden Tech and after reading your post might try it even those it appears be several years old (found at a Yard sale). Are any of these what you are using?". Jesse

[Martintown33]

Hi Jesse. I’ve written many posts on this topic in another thread that maybe you missed. The old Sevin I was referring to is the carbaryl 5%.. I’ve done a lot of research recently and I’ve found out that all dust pesticides, start losing potency after 1 to 3 years, after the container is opened, and shouldn’t be used after 3 years. That includes the old 5% Sevin , the new Sevin .1% bifenthrin and .25% permethrin poultry or insect dust.
When I put the old Sevin on the mites in the bucket, it was a fairly substantial amount.. a lot more than we use in our Martin nests. So it did kill the mites in that case. I called the manager of southern ag.. the only company I could find that still produces 5% carbaryl dust. He told me that the epa is getting rid of carbaryl and that his company won’t be making it much longer. So it’s either new Sevin dust with bifenthrin or permethrin dust available to us. Personally, from what I’ve read I’m not going to trust any pesticide dust over 2 years, just to be on the safe side. With that said, I wouldn’t trust using that old Sevin carbaryl dust that you got at the garage sale, due to its age and unknown potency remaining. Just my opinion.
Good luck
Rob

[Bird Brain]

I imagine the humidity in Louisiana hinders your dusting efforts. Humidity is not conducive to dust. If I drive a pickup truck down a dirt road in West Texas, I'm going to kick up a lot more dust than if I drive a pickup truck down a Louisiana dirt road. A Louisiana dirt road may not kick up any dust at all. The same law of physics holds true for the martin nest. Once the dust soaks up enough humidity, it will become damp, rendered ineffective and useless. Dusting on a bright, sunny day in the afternoon with no clouds could make a difference.

[Martintown33]

You are correct birdbrain. Humidity, moisture, rain etc, will affect the potency of pesticide dusts for certain. If it gets wet, you should re apply, when the area is dry again.
Rob

[Condorman]

Hi Jesse. I’ve written many posts on this topic in another thread that maybe you missed. The old Sevin I was referring to is the carbaryl 5%.. I’ve done a lot of research recently and I’ve found out that all dust pesticides, start losing potency after 1 to 3 years, after the container is opened, and shouldn’t be used after 3 years. That includes the old 5% Sevin , the new Sevin .1% bifenthrin and .25% permethrin poultry or insect dust.
When I put the old Sevin on the mites in the bucket, it was a fairly substantial amount.. a lot more than we use in our Martin nests. So it did kill the mites in that case. I called the manager of southern ag.. the only company I could find that still produces 5% carbaryl dust. He told me that the epa is getting rid of carbaryl and that his company won’t be making it much longer. So it’s either new Sevin dust with bifenthrin or permethrin dust available to us. Personally, from what I’ve read I’m not going to trust any pesticide dust over 2 years, just to be on the safe side. With that said, I wouldn’t trust using that old Sevin carbaryl dust that you got at the garage sale, due to its age and unknown potency remaining. Just my opinion.
Good luck
Rob

Hi Rob,
Thanks for your comments. I think I forgot to hit "submit" when I responded and I lost my first response.. So I'm going to treat part of the colony tomorrow, the house I know is feeding young now. My arsenal is this: I bought the "new" Sevin yesterday (.1% bifenthrin), and have the Avian Insect Liquidator (small spray bottle and doesn't say what's in it), plus diatomaceous earth, the old Sevin (5% Carbaryl, which I might just throw a small amount in with the mix just in case). I'm going to mix this all in together, except the spray, which I'll use on any birds that are heavily infested since it does say you can use directly on the bird. I distribute this with a 1 1/2" older paint brush with fine bristles which picks up and holds the dust while you dab it around the compartment and nest. Many years ago when I was a kid banding martins (1971-1978) I was using Sevin powder that was mixed with water in a spray bottle (directions at the time) and I then sprayed the compartment and nest and then a small handful of red cedar shavings in the nest cup before replacing the young back in the nest. This really worked, and the testimony to that was the adults brought the young back to those compartments at night after they fledged. The adults won't bring the young back if there are mites still in the compartment. So that "old" Sevin is now gone, and advise is not to use red cedar shavings (although it never affected the birds I was managing). So this is why I'm curious about with what and how folks are managing mites now. I know this is critical so I don't want to waste the effort missing some important step. Also curious if anyone has ever tried dried coffee grounds as a deterrent ( I know it they won't kill mites). Jesse

[Martintown33]

Hi Jesse. I think your plan is a good one, with the mix of substances you mentioned. But I wouldn’t use the DE. In my opinion, It really isn’t necessary to use that when you’re using the other things you mentioned. It is known to be easily airborne when chicks flap their wings, etc inside the compartment, and inhaled causing respiratory issues. DE is basically a powder made of minuscule sharp shards of dust, that are unhealthy to be inhaled.
I too use the avian insect liquidator to spray the walls and floors of compartments, but I haven’t felt comfortable spraying it directly on the birds, even though the directions say it is safe to do so.
But I like your plan of attack.. sounds good.
Good luck
Rob

[Conrad Baker]

Hi Jesse. I’ve written many posts on this topic in another thread that maybe you missed. The old Sevin I was referring to is the carbaryl 5%.. I’ve done a lot of research recently and I’ve found out that all dust pesticides, start losing potency after 1 to 3 years, after the container is opened, and shouldn’t be used after 3 years. That includes the old 5% Sevin , the new Sevin .1% bifenthrin and .25% permethrin poultry or insect dust.
When I put the old Sevin on the mites in the bucket, it was a fairly substantial amount.. a lot more than we use in our Martin nests. So it did kill the mites in that case. I called the manager of southern ag.. the only company I could find that still produces 5% carbaryl dust. He told me that the epa is getting rid of carbaryl and that his company won’t be making it much longer. So it’s either new Sevin dust with bifenthrin or permethrin dust available to us. Personally, from what I’ve read I’m not going to trust any pesticide dust over 2 years, just to be on the safe side. With that said, I wouldn’t trust using that old Sevin carbaryl dust that you got at the garage sale, due to its age and unknown potency remaining. Just my opinion.
Good luck
Rob

Hi Rob,
Thanks for your comments. I think I forgot to hit "submit" when I responded and I lost my first response.. So I'm going to treat part of the colony tomorrow, the house I know is feeding young now. My arsenal is this: I bought the "new" Sevin yesterday (.1% bifenthrin), and have the Avian Insect Liquidator (small spray bottle and doesn't say what's in it), plus diatomaceous earth, the old Sevin (5% Carbaryl, which I might just throw a small amount in with the mix just in case). I'm going to mix this all in together, except the spray, which I'll use on any birds that are heavily infested since it does say you can use directly on the bird. I distribute this with a 1 1/2" older paint brush with fine bristles which picks up and holds the dust while you dab it around the compartment and nest. Many years ago when I was a kid banding martins (1971-1978) I was using Sevin powder that was mixed with water in a spray bottle (directions at the time) and I then sprayed the compartment and nest and then a small handful of red cedar shavings in the nest cup before replacing the young back in the nest. This really worked, and the testimony to that was the adults brought the young back to those compartments at night after they fledged. The adults won't bring the young back if there are mites still in the compartment. So that "old" Sevin is now gone, and advise is not to use red cedar shavings (although it never affected the birds I was managing). So this is why I'm curious about with what and how folks are managing mites now. I know this is critical so I don't want to waste the effort missing some important step. Also curious if anyone has ever tried dried coffee grounds as a deterrent ( I know it they won't kill mites). Jesse

Condorman, sounds like a good plan, EXCEPT I would not use the DE. Martintown33 explains why. I think using something that directly affects the mites (bifenthrin) is a better approach. Good Luck !!