Central Kentucky nest check last night found 9 out of 11 babies dead. Three in the process of hatching with one dead and the other two cold to the touch and the other two eggs also cold. Over 80 eggs in other nests with only 4 warm to the touch. 11 nests completed with 5 to 6 eggs. Only one female on the nest at the time of the nest check (5:00 PM) with her 4 eggs the only ones warm.
Question, should I remove most of the eggs in hopes they will re-nest?
There are just over 50 adults at this site and only three could be counted for 1 hour after the check. They were away trying to feed themselves to stay alive. I'm thinking these cold eggs will not hatch after they once started the incubation process and now they are cold. I found three nest with eggs scattered. Could this be from many birds packing into one gourd?
Cold Temps - Dead Babies
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Mary Dawnsong
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:17 pm
- Location: Michigan, Livingston County
Hi,
I am very sorry for your loses.
My advice is to remove dead babies, but leave unhatched eggs alone.
Incubation can be delayed for over a week and still maintain viable eggs.
For more info, read: http://purplemartin.org/forumarchives/archive/eggs.htm
In spells of bad weather like we are experiencing it is common for martins to stop incubating eggs.
It is a survival mechanism, obviously, the female must choose to save herself rather than incubate.
There are three possible outcomes: 1) delayed incubation, 2) renesting, 3) site abandonment.
These birds have flown all the way from Brazil to raise a family, so delayed incubation or renesting are likely outcomes assuming the birds remain strong enough to resume breeding activities.
In 2001, my colony experienced three weeks of very cold, wet weather starting in mid-May after egg-laying had begun.
8 clutches survived the cold spell, but hatched after longer than normal incubation - an extra 3-9 days!
6 pairs that had eggs before the cold spell relaid, most without removing the old clutch. One nest had 12 eggs - 3 eventually hatched!
Good luck to you and your birds,
Mary
I am very sorry for your loses.
My advice is to remove dead babies, but leave unhatched eggs alone.
Incubation can be delayed for over a week and still maintain viable eggs.
For more info, read: http://purplemartin.org/forumarchives/archive/eggs.htm
In spells of bad weather like we are experiencing it is common for martins to stop incubating eggs.
It is a survival mechanism, obviously, the female must choose to save herself rather than incubate.
There are three possible outcomes: 1) delayed incubation, 2) renesting, 3) site abandonment.
These birds have flown all the way from Brazil to raise a family, so delayed incubation or renesting are likely outcomes assuming the birds remain strong enough to resume breeding activities.
In 2001, my colony experienced three weeks of very cold, wet weather starting in mid-May after egg-laying had begun.
8 clutches survived the cold spell, but hatched after longer than normal incubation - an extra 3-9 days!
6 pairs that had eggs before the cold spell relaid, most without removing the old clutch. One nest had 12 eggs - 3 eventually hatched!
Good luck to you and your birds,
Mary
Click here to see my colony
"In Michigan every martin matters"
"In Michigan every martin matters"
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Bob Flam
I'm no expert on this by any means.
But I'd say you could go ahead and remove any dead babies.
As for eggs, I'd wait and let the martins deal with them. Unless you've been keeping really good track of which have started incubation and then stopped... Thats going to be tough to call tho.
The martins should remove the bad eggs I'd think.
It's early enough most or some will try again. The clutchs will be smaller.
Maybe the PMCA will chime in on this one or someone else.
bob
But I'd say you could go ahead and remove any dead babies.
As for eggs, I'd wait and let the martins deal with them. Unless you've been keeping really good track of which have started incubation and then stopped... Thats going to be tough to call tho.
The martins should remove the bad eggs I'd think.
It's early enough most or some will try again. The clutchs will be smaller.
Maybe the PMCA will chime in on this one or someone else.
bob
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Glen Webb Jr
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:03 pm
- Location: Illinois/Stewardson
I think you're right on all accounts. I would go ahead and dump the eggs. Depending on how many days you and the martins have dealt with the cold weather, the eggs would likely be discarded anyhow. I pulled around 125 eggs from the gourds yesterday, along with dead birds in gourds and on the ground.
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dcartwright
- Posts: 259
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:52 pm
- Location: Winchester, Ky.
I have kept very good records. From what I seen yesterday and this morning, most birds are just trying to survive at this point. My season started with egg laying 3 weeks earlier than last year. Most of these nests have had incubation in progress for more than a week.
I plan on removing all dead babies today.
Mary, I read the article concerning not removing eggs. Thanks. I just don't see how it would be possible for the nests that I know are half way through or near the end of the incubation process to survive. Another 3 to 4 days of cold nights (low 40s) are forecasted with highs only in the low 60s.
I'm thinking about removing the eggs from half of the nests that I know are in this late phase of incubation and leaving the other half and then recording the results. Does anyone see a big problem with this idea?
I plan on removing all dead babies today.
Mary, I read the article concerning not removing eggs. Thanks. I just don't see how it would be possible for the nests that I know are half way through or near the end of the incubation process to survive. Another 3 to 4 days of cold nights (low 40s) are forecasted with highs only in the low 60s.
I'm thinking about removing the eggs from half of the nests that I know are in this late phase of incubation and leaving the other half and then recording the results. Does anyone see a big problem with this idea?
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Mary Dawnsong
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:17 pm
- Location: Michigan, Livingston County
1. Why not just let the birds manage their eggs? Why get involved? I have much more confidence in the birds ability to make egg-related decisions than in mine.
2. How will the martins know the eggs weren't taken by a predator? How can you be sure they won't abandon the site when their eggs have vanished?
Each landlord is free to make his/her own policy.
My policy is not to mess with eggs and my colony has been very successful in Michigan for 14 seasons.
2. How will the martins know the eggs weren't taken by a predator? How can you be sure they won't abandon the site when their eggs have vanished?
Each landlord is free to make his/her own policy.
My policy is not to mess with eggs and my colony has been very successful in Michigan for 14 seasons.
Click here to see my colony
"In Michigan every martin matters"
"In Michigan every martin matters"
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dcartwright
- Posts: 259
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:52 pm
- Location: Winchester, Ky.
1. Why? To maximize the number of young to fledge. Will the pair re-nest without removing the eggs? If this is a yes, I will not bother removing the eggs. The last thing I want to do is cause them to abandon this site. I want very much for them to re-nest.
2. Good question. I know if a pair was attacked and eggs destroyed, they see and experience the attacker. Under such attacks such as owls, snakes, raccoons, etc. the adults are under great stress from the attack. In this case they just see the eggs gone with the weather is the one causing the stress and the removal of their attention to the eggs and young. When I remove the dead babies tonight, how will the pair of these not think that a predator took them? Why not just let them manage their dead babies as well as their eggs? I cannot be sure but want to be sure before doing anything if possible. The reason for asking the questions before doing anything. I really look forward and appreciate the responses from experts such as you Mary. I still need your thoughts and anyone else that knows the answers.
Mary, in your 14 years, do the adults always re-nest if all the eggs in the nest fail? Do they re-nest if only one egg hatches? I would think not on this one. If so you would have only one making it when you could have a re-nest and have four or five. Is there a large abandonment of the site if all of these eggs are removed? Is there a large abandonment of the site if just some are removed?
My policy is to maximize the survival of these great birds.
Thank you so much for your help. Love this site!
2. Good question. I know if a pair was attacked and eggs destroyed, they see and experience the attacker. Under such attacks such as owls, snakes, raccoons, etc. the adults are under great stress from the attack. In this case they just see the eggs gone with the weather is the one causing the stress and the removal of their attention to the eggs and young. When I remove the dead babies tonight, how will the pair of these not think that a predator took them? Why not just let them manage their dead babies as well as their eggs? I cannot be sure but want to be sure before doing anything if possible. The reason for asking the questions before doing anything. I really look forward and appreciate the responses from experts such as you Mary. I still need your thoughts and anyone else that knows the answers.
Mary, in your 14 years, do the adults always re-nest if all the eggs in the nest fail? Do they re-nest if only one egg hatches? I would think not on this one. If so you would have only one making it when you could have a re-nest and have four or five. Is there a large abandonment of the site if all of these eggs are removed? Is there a large abandonment of the site if just some are removed?
My policy is to maximize the survival of these great birds.
Thank you so much for your help. Love this site!
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Mary Dawnsong
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:17 pm
- Location: Michigan, Livingston County
Hi,
Regarding all your questions about eggs:
I can't answer them. I am not a researcher and not that interested in analyzing my nest records. Plus my colony is just a single data point. That's why I follow the recommendations of PMCA and leave egg management up to the birds. It works for my colony, but each site is different.
It sounds like you are going to run a study of your own, so please let us know the results.
Regarding removal of dead young:
I do this for sanitation/disease control. It is probably more important in houses where the "rot" can literally spread, less important in gourds.
And, frankly, it makes colony management more pleasant for the landlord. I dread opening compartments with decomposing birds inside.
Will martins abandon if you remove dead young?
My experience is certainly not if there are any living young remaining.
If all young have died, then I would expect them to abandon anyway.
I don''t remember any renesting here after a pair has lost all a full nest of young. But it may happen - especially farther south where you have a longer breeding season.
Hope the rest of your season goes well,
Mary
Regarding all your questions about eggs:
I can't answer them. I am not a researcher and not that interested in analyzing my nest records. Plus my colony is just a single data point. That's why I follow the recommendations of PMCA and leave egg management up to the birds. It works for my colony, but each site is different.
It sounds like you are going to run a study of your own, so please let us know the results.
Regarding removal of dead young:
I do this for sanitation/disease control. It is probably more important in houses where the "rot" can literally spread, less important in gourds.
And, frankly, it makes colony management more pleasant for the landlord. I dread opening compartments with decomposing birds inside.
Will martins abandon if you remove dead young?
My experience is certainly not if there are any living young remaining.
If all young have died, then I would expect them to abandon anyway.
I don''t remember any renesting here after a pair has lost all a full nest of young. But it may happen - especially farther south where you have a longer breeding season.
Hope the rest of your season goes well,
Mary
Click here to see my colony
"In Michigan every martin matters"
"In Michigan every martin matters"
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Guest
I must agree with Mary, and would leave the eggs alone. The martin mothers know so much more than we do, and delayed incubation may occur and the eggs may hatch. IF after 2 weeks or so, you are POSITIVE the females have not been incubating the eggs, then maybe you could toss them. Our martins would not have made it this far, without knowing what to do.
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Bob Flam
not always...in the case of eggs/babies...sparrows and starlings often do their nasty deed when the martins are gone out foraging in the afternoon.I know if a pair was attacked and eggs destroyed, they see and experience the attacker.
I'll throw in my opinion on a couple post and questions here on this thread.
Site abandonment because of weather related deaths? No
Of course that may not be true in every case. But they chose your site to nest for a reason, and if the weather caused a problem, they know it.
If it's too late in the year, they may leave and not nest at all that year, anywhere. Will they come back the next year if they didn't successfully raise a brood anywhere? If you only had a couple pairs and they went somewhere else to communally roost at a larger colony. They may stay there, they may come back. All these are Maybe's...maybe not's...with out banding you couldn't really say one way or another.
Will they renest ? Yes, if theres time.
I have lost babies because of weather before and they renested. I have heard of others that have too. I removed the dead young. This again is hard to say it was the same pair with out banding. But my colony was very small that year, and I'm quite sure it was the same pair.
egg discarding? I don't do it.
I figure the birds know more about if they are good/bad, than I do. And they may leave them in there and lay more. How will you know which are bad? I have seen the martins theirselves discard bad eggs. I have eggs every year in some nest that never hatched. Of course after the babies hatch and are growing, then you can remove any unhatched eggs.
All of this is kind of a personal choice. These are my opinions on it.
bob
Last edited by Bob Flam on Tue May 16, 2006 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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floridasunshinegoddess
dcartwright,
I would leave the eggs alone. Like Mary said, incubation can be delayed.
However, I would try supplemental feeding the adults with mealworms, crickets or scrambled eggs. They must be very hungry!
Here's what James Hill says about discarding eggs:
http://purplemartin.org/forumarchives/archive/eggs.htm
I would leave the eggs alone. Like Mary said, incubation can be delayed.
However, I would try supplemental feeding the adults with mealworms, crickets or scrambled eggs. They must be very hungry!
Here's what James Hill says about discarding eggs:
http://purplemartin.org/forumarchives/archive/eggs.htm
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Bob Flam
I wanted to expand on my last post. When I said I don't remove eggs, that is my basic rule.
But I have removed eggs before a couple times. On gourds or rooms where I have found the mother dead inside, if she had eggs I removed them. I can recall doing this in one gourd and the ASY male got a sy girl...they used that same gourd and successfully fledged young.
I've done it in other rooms where the female died and was on the ground. But that took a day or two of very persistant watching to pin point which room she was from. That would have been hard to do without good nest checks and observations.
I'm in an ideal situation to watch my birds beings I've worked 3rd shift for years. It's one of the reasons I like that shift
My wife has made the note a few times of how I watch and like them birds more than her
As some of ya all know...I had names for all my birds for several years. I still like the name of the pair my daughter named...Alonki and Sachajewia. They were one of my 1st 2 pair that started my colony in town. Along with Bonnie and Clyde. Bonnie never made it back the 2nd year...was sad...I'll never forget her. She's the one that fed her babies with the housing down and me right there a foot away. Clyde made it back tho. Never forget that day he came back. I ran out...hollered his name...the housing was 200 feet out in the lot. He flew straight to me on the porch and landed in a branch 5 feet above my head. Followed me out to the housing circling above my head singing the entire way.
Ahh....Purples
Wooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
But I have removed eggs before a couple times. On gourds or rooms where I have found the mother dead inside, if she had eggs I removed them. I can recall doing this in one gourd and the ASY male got a sy girl...they used that same gourd and successfully fledged young.
I've done it in other rooms where the female died and was on the ground. But that took a day or two of very persistant watching to pin point which room she was from. That would have been hard to do without good nest checks and observations.
I'm in an ideal situation to watch my birds beings I've worked 3rd shift for years. It's one of the reasons I like that shift
My wife has made the note a few times of how I watch and like them birds more than her
As some of ya all know...I had names for all my birds for several years. I still like the name of the pair my daughter named...Alonki and Sachajewia. They were one of my 1st 2 pair that started my colony in town. Along with Bonnie and Clyde. Bonnie never made it back the 2nd year...was sad...I'll never forget her. She's the one that fed her babies with the housing down and me right there a foot away. Clyde made it back tho. Never forget that day he came back. I ran out...hollered his name...the housing was 200 feet out in the lot. He flew straight to me on the porch and landed in a branch 5 feet above my head. Followed me out to the housing circling above my head singing the entire way.
Ahh....Purples
Wooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo