Snakes in Gourds question

[nick1578]

We have two poles with gourds.Have had Martins in both for the last 15 yrs or so. Last yr a snake got past predator guard and netting and got in one of the colonies.We probably had about 20 martins in that colony and they all left.I moved that pole to a new spot as my impression was those martins would not return to that colony.
We just had some martins return last week and they went to the gourds that had the snake last yr.One stayed but 3 left and haven't returned.
My Question is could they detect that a snake had been in the gourds a yr ago.I changed all the pine straw in the gourds that had been used by martins last yr but didn't in the gourds that hadn't been used

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

The martins cannot smell a snake, but they can remember that their babies may have been eaten at your site. Moving the pole a short distance may help some, I cannot say for sure, but its just a matter of starting over. You could leave the poles at the old site, I doubt if it would make any difference.

I had such an experience about 25 years ago, the martins would attempt to land, and then they would scream at each other, and they would all fly away. I had to start over, and at that time I added 4ft of pvc pipe, and made the compartments deeper for owl protection.

Good luck

[KathyF]

My aunt had the same experience in 2012 (despite my best efforts to get her to put predator guards on her poles - long story *sigh*). Anyway, a snake entered one of the cavities and ate the parents and 5 nestlings that were probably 20-25 days old. Last year, only a few pair of subbies nested in that same house and the other martins went to the other housing on her site.

One of my banded females had nested there in 2012 - last year (2013), she came back here to my site to nest. No way of telling of course, if the snake attack was incentive for her to leave, but there you go - she did.

[Louise Chambers]

The idea of a smell left by snakes scaring martins off is a myth - our snake story: At a site we managed for the landlord on weekends only, a large rat snake got past the pole guard. It was in a gourd when we did our check, luckily (except for occupants of the gourd), we caught it before it visited any other gourds. It ate the eggs, and possibly one or both parents in that gourd.

The rest of the colony was going about their business (I've seen this at other sites, martins all feeding young, while a snake dined in one compartment). We tried to keep the snake covered as we removed it, but some saw it and after that they kept landing on porch of that gourd, and very cautiously peering inside. That gourd stayed empty for a while, but another pair moved in and raised young in it that season.

The snake went for a long ride further out into the country for release - it was a beauty. But main point of this is, scent is not an issue, martins seeing the snake at least warns them - I think if the snake continues to eat, moving to other nests, risk of site abandonment grows. We were very lucky to catch this snake the day it started its raid on the martins.

[nick1578]

Thanks for the responses.I feel more optimistic about our chances with these gourds.It was our oldest colony, about 15 yrs, and usually had about 20 nesting pairs.
I've been wanting to move it so I figured after the snake now would be the time.
We've enjoyed our Martins so much and have a big roost just south of us at Dauphin Island Bridge area.Really enjoy watching them as they mass up in preparation for migration south. Only downside is hundreds get hit by cars on the bridge.Hard to see that.
Nick

[M.Stephens]

I completely agree with what Louise said. The same thing has happened at my site and it happened 3 times last year. 3 different snakes got past my guards and got in the nests.

If you can catch them before they do too much damage then they probably won't abandon the site. I had a gourd that young were eaten out of on one system and a trio castle that had several nests raided. I almost didn't catch the snake in time in the castle . All of the martins in the castle and other systems didn't even act like anything was going on. If it weren't for the nest check the snake would have wiped out the martins in the castle and probably would've moved to my other systems after cleaning that one out. Needless to say I was devastated. Since I have a large colony it didn't hurt me too bad.

I am currently in the process of changing all of my guards to electric this season!

[nick1578]

Tell me about the electric predator gourds. I'm not aware of that.
Nick

[Louise Chambers]

I think that many landlords who report their martins didn't return one year, and say that they had no predation to cause the abandonment, may have had snake predation.

If the landlord does not have reasonably good pole guards, and does not do any nest checks, snakes don't leave any clues behind other than empty, but undisturbed, nests.

We added electric guards to our weekend site, which is rural, after catching snakes in the net snake traps above the stovepipe guards. We had a failure after that, somehow a snake got past electric guard, so we were glad we still had the net traps up above the electric guard. Not sure why, but we tried to make sure there were no gaps that let a snake climb up inside the wires after that. And landlords might as well keep stovepipe guards up, they are back-up for possible electric failures.

[M.Stephens]

Louise,
I have removable stovepipe and pvc guards with snake netting added to them. The snakes got past them. I'll be adding the electric to all of these guards.

Nick,
Go to the search button and click on it and search for electric predator guard. You should find all kinds of information.

[Thurman Seber~TN]

Here is my take on this for what it is worth, snakes are much more common than many landlords realize. I talk to area landlords almost every year about why their martins didn't return. When I mention snakes.. many will quickly cut me off by saying we have metal poles and snakes can't climb them.. and besides that we never have seen a snake around our poles.. I make one attempt to inform them, and if they won't listen.. I change the subject and leave them in their ignorance.
I just don't trust metal stovepipe guards at all. I believe the large diameter pvc pipes probably work and I have used them but never relied exclusively on them. I used electric guards for years with great success .. When properly made and installed they work fine. The netting absolutely work fine when properly installed. I have caught a number of snakes in it each year since we moved to our new location.. Here is what I believe to be the key as to whether a snake raid is a colony killer. If the remaining martins never see the snake they will probably settle down and stay at the colony. But once a snake is spotted in the gourd rack or on the house.. You can turn out the lights... the party is over.. If many snakes raid at night, how do the martins see them? They keep moving from compartment to compartment until they eat all they want, then come back again until the colony is cleaned out As the end of the season nears, they stop seeing martins and tell me "their' martins left early this year Truth is they didn't leave at all they all became snake food. I have caught as many as three snakes the same night. With two even more common. If there are none left to leave, they can't return next year. Now explain to me where I am wrong

[AnnieM]

Louise, could you explain exactly how you removed the snake from the house/gourd that you were managing on weekends?

I put netting above and below the predator guards on our poles on recommendations from the Forum. Last summer three snakes were caught in the netting below the predator guards. None made it to the netting above. But if one should, I have no idea how I would go about removing the snake from the gourd. Do you use pliers or tongs or ??? Did you put it in a burlap bag or plastic bag or ???

And by the way, do rattlesnakes ever climb the poles? We have those too, tho not in abundance.

[Louise Chambers]

Annie - it helps to have a helper with you Wearing heavy gloves is a good idea, but my helper used a towel to cover the snake's head and grab hold of it. Then we dropped it into a large bucket, a pillow case works great too.

To remove a live snake from netting, again, use heavy gloves and take hold of head (I think Steve K and Mike Dingman shared this info) and start cutting along snake's back, from head to tail, so you are cutting with the line of the scales, not against them.

I'm glad to say rattlesnakes are not climbers - but I know of one case where a copperhead was found in a bluebird box. Good time to mention, never reach into a cavity or gourd without looking first - and gloves never hurt. We've encountered bees, wasps, live black widow spiders, and live bats. A long stick is very helpful for removal of most of those. A bat should be covered with a towel and very gently moved to bucket for release, unless it first offers to fly away on its own.

[Lane Stout]

Snakes are everywhere and thus I think we can group ourselves into four distinct "snake predation" martin landlord categories; 1) those that have experienced snake attacks, 2) those that will, 3) those that have but don't know they have and, 4) those that have had (or will have) attempts thwarted due to adequate, proven prevention measures. Regardless if you're just getting started or if you're currently in group one, two, or three you really will want to get to group four as quickly as possible if your goal is to keep and grow your colony.

I like to show doubters the photo attached I ran across on the web some time back. Don't know who's site or photo it is but I think we all recognize the pole setup. I too use to run this exact setup before a three foot long black rat snake with it's belly full of martins was found in a gourd above the baffle about 10 years ago. That is when I migrated from group one to group four. All of my baffles are connected to chargers now and never have I experienced another successful ground predator attack.

Electrically isolating this baffle and hooking it to a fence charger or, properly adding netting above it can make it effective at this height. Simply raising the baffle higher increases it's effectiveness somewhat. Electric fence chargers connected to metal baffles seems to garner the highest consensus as the most effective deterrent available (plus you don't have to mess with untangling captured snakes from netting).

Snakes, especially rat snakes are climbing machines. Do a Google search for "Climbing Black Rat Snake" and be prepared to be amazed.

Hoping to see everyone in group four soon and wishing all a great 2014 Martin season!

[AnnieM]

Thank you, Louise. Let's hope the netting does it's job and I don't have to deal with removing a live snake from a gourd. Interesting, but the snakes that I've removed from the netting below the predator guard must have been visible to the martins. But it did not seem to bother them when they are on the ground.
Still no martins at our place about 15 minutes south of Blanco, TX. They are all around us but their typical arrival date here has been the first week of March. We have one more mild type cold spell arriving Thursday, but then all will be well. Am wondering how they will take to the new pole location and trying not to look at the skies too often.

[Thurman Seber~TN]

A snake caught in netting becomes pretty quiet and still. It doesn't bother the martins at my house either.. But let that same snake start climbing up the pole an see what happens.

[Ron Shaffer]

June 17, 2012...a very tired Ron decides to do a nest check after the sun is good&up...after a long series of midnight shifts....I'm on the last rack, and checking one of the last gourds, when...right there inches from my face is a snake!!
....now I can let tarantulas craw all over my head and not think twice...but I absolutely despise snakes......this snake has cleaned out the gourd...which had 2 week old babies in it...but he can't get back through the modified excluder entrance........I can't even get him out by shaking him out of the 4 inch access cap.

My first thought was to put on a rubber glove and snatch him out really quickly...but only for about 1/10th of a second...he might scurry into the weeds...and this snake is not about to get away.

I go back in the house and get in my sock drawer for four rounds of #6 shot, and reach under the bed for the Remington 870 12 gauge, and carried the snake gourd around to the back of the house. Two quick blasts from the 870 blasted the snake to bits...but my gourd was destroyed in the process. Was able to salvage the entrance and access cap for use the next year.

The other martins in the colony were not bothered at all by this snake...guessing he snuck (sneaked??) in at night. My wife has caught them trying to sneak in in broad daylight...I still have to chuckle at the thought of her standing on a milk crate swatting at a black snake with a garden rake....but that's another post.

[Dave Reynolds]

Ron -- Good story.. Snake are everywhere..

Dave

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I have grabbed them with a pair of channel-lock pliers, but they may coil over your hand a little bit. Even garden shears may work for you.

[AnnieM]

Emil, thx for suggestion. I can do it, but hope don't have to. Borrow my husband's LONG channel-locks. My sis in Tucson has some very long grippers that she uses to move rattlers out of her yard (when they are cold and not moving much) but think they would be too large for the gourds. Just want to be prepared and have thought it all thru ahead of time to avoid SNAFU. And don't want to injure snake if possible.

[BuddyS]

OK so I'm guessing that there is no sure fire way, other than electrifying, that will stop a snake. I couldn't believe the photo of the rat snake climbing right up and over the stove pipe guard. Is a bigger diameter/circumference the key when setting up a predator guard? Maybe a small barrel or beer keg?