News to me - Do you KNOW the S&S laws in your state?

Guest · Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:15 pm

I knew that in Michigan I am required to have a small game license to legally shoot S&S. What I did not know is that to legally trap S&S in Michigan I need a "nuisance animal control permit". Being the "on the up and up" guy that I am I decided to apply for a permit. I got the third degree and Wildlife Biologists and Conservation Officers are getting involved. This is JUST to legally trap S&S in my yard! Now, mind you, I don't need a permit or license to legally trap and destroy (humanely) a Raccoon in my yard, but trapping these non-native birds that kill our cavity nesting birds requires a permit which seems to be quite an ordeal to acquire. Is Michigan the only backward state in America? Please check with your natural resources department to see if similar laws exist in any other state. You may need to make a phone call, as I can't find this law in print anywhere. I'd REALLY like to let our DNR know that we are the only state that has this stupid time and money wasting law on the books!

Thanks,
Mark Dietrich
www.michiganmartins.com

John Barrow · Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:55 pm

Mark, I attach a page from Texas Parks and Wildlife hunting regulations found on their home page. Hunting, by definition, includes shooting and trapping.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publication ... nt/nongame

Protected Birds: Hawks, owls, eagles, and all other nongame birds and songbirds (except for the few unprotected birds listed below) are protected by various state and federal laws and may not be killed, taken from the nest, picked up, or possessed for any reason, and their feathers may not be possessed or sold. Arts and crafts may not include these protected species under any circumstances.

Nonprotected Birds:The only birds not protected by any state or federal law are European starlings, English sparrows, feral rock doves (common pigeon - Columba livia) and Eurasian collared-doves; these species may be killed at any time, their nests or eggs destroyed, and their feathers may be possessed.
Yellow-headed, red-winged, rusty, or Brewer's blackbirds and all grackles, cowbirds (does not include cattle egret), crows, or magpies may be controlled without a federal or state depredation permit when found committing or about to commit depredations on ornamental or shade trees, agricultural crops, livestock, or wildlife, or when concentrated in numbers and in a manner that constitutes a health hazard or other nuisance.
Bats: May not be hunted, killed, possessed, purchased or sold; however, bats may be moved, trapped, or killed if inside or on a building occupied by people. A person may transport a bat for the purpose of laboratory testing if there is a rabies concern.

Guest · Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:32 pm

Thanks John,

That's one state that doesn't require you to have a special permit to trap S&S in your own backyard! I sure hope that this is a trend or more than us Michigan folks are in trouble.

Mark

Guest · Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:29 am

This reminds me of the King of the Hill show where Hank's kitchen floor collapses into a tunnel dug by Dale. Hank, being the perfect citizen goes down to city hall to get a building permit to repair the floor. The city comes out to inspect the job site and ends up condemning the property.

Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Guest · Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:17 pm

In Quebec a small game license is required for for ES and Hosps but the season is closed in May and June. I have not found any mention of trapping - it's probably illegal.
In Ontario a small game license is required, only Ontario (a nonresident small game license is no good)residance may 'hunt' ES and Hosp if you live outside of the province but have a colony there (like me)you have to ask your neighbour to help you out. I am trying to find out about trapping.

Guest · Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:12 pm

Sorry Stan,

Sounds like Canada is in worse shape than Michigan! I didn't think that it was possible. Why would a province protect a non-native species??? It sounds like some provincial government leaders need to get some letters! That is all just plain wrong, as Michigan's law is. Send me a PM or e-mail if you want some help.

mshiflett65,

Very funny! Good wisdom, too.

Unfortunately for me, I take this kind of thing personally. If you only knew half of what I have learned in the past two days you would shudder.

This is just one of my new projects. I seem to find a new one every few weeks now. Michigan's DNR needs a wake up call on this poorly thought out program. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. I'm already in up to my neck. I REALLY need to know what other state's laws are! If anyone can help it would be appreciated!

Mark
www.michiganmartins.com
[email protected]

Guest · Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:26 pm

I have no idea what the laws are in our state concerning non-native bird species, as I'm sure probably most people aren't aware of the legalities in their individual states. I will try to find out what ours is; this does make me wonder.

Dale Hrncirik · Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:14 pm

Mark,

Bout the only law I know in TX regarding guns is that you must own at least one! That goes without saying.

S&S are fair game here...no stinking permits required!

Dale

Guest · Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:02 am

Mark, sorry to hear that you are experiencing difficulty. It is good that you are educating yourself about the laws in your state though.

Fred Kaluza~MI · Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:15 am

Mark, it seems these kinds of "laws" are similar to "It's illegal to spit on the sidewalk" etc. I consider them the most dangerous things around. They lead to what's known as "selective enforcement". It actually begins to make judges of our police officers. It's wrong when policeman have discretionary powers about when they are going to "push the limit" on someone IF or WHETHER a neighbor complains etc. Their job should be much more straight-forward. In the process of obtaining my CCW permit I found that it's already perfectly legal to carry a sidearm in Michigan as long as it's exposed in plain view. I also learned that many people who see this occurring will panic and tell a nearby policeman who will then be obliged to "do something about it". Typically they will take you in to the station, make a report "although you won't be arrested", and immediately released. Now, if you choose to continue carrying your weapon in plain sight, this process may be repeated indefinitely! It's a form of legal harrassment that the system allows for. It all brings about the cycle called "don't ask, don't tell" or "shoot, shovel and shutup". With regard to CCW licensing, my friend decided he could read and understand the State and U.S. constitutions just fine. His "permit" is a wrinkled copy of the second ammendment he keeps tucked in his boot! In your first post you said..." I can't find this law in print anywhere." If that's the case, then I certainly wouldn't consider anyone's opinion about it to be a "law", even if they were a D.N.R. official. Innocent 'till proven guilty...Show me the law! I know, they'll probably pull up some convoluted set of municipal ordinances that conflict with the state constitutional dictates and that's what keeps the wheels of politics in motion. If P.E.T.A. were well enough funded to take every Mouse-trapper and Ant-sprayer to court, you know we'd all be in jail and the attorneys would be taking every case offered.

Guest · Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:49 pm

Fred,

That's why I want to get rid of the idiotic "law". Why should any one of us have to deal with the authorities over this? Shooting S&S is MUCH more prone to misidentification than trapping! This law needs to go away and I plan to try to make it go away.

The Michigan DNR Lieutenant that I spoke with thought that there was more than one type of Sparrow that could be killed legally in our state! This person wanted to know if I was raising Tree Swallows, Wood Ducks and Eastern Bluebirds indoors or outdoors! I replied that I wouldn't care about trapping S&S outdoors if I had a house full of birds! That's just part of it. There was a LOT more that made me concerned. My "nasty gram" has been passed up the chain to the folks in charge. I might win or take the fall.

Mark

Fred Kaluza~MI · Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:21 am

Mark, that's incredible! Actually, may not so incredible after all. Remember, the people responsible for enforcing the laws aren't the same as those who made them. It does make me question just how much thinking went into the creation of the "law" you mention in the first place. For the enforcement folks, it has to be made simple. Like determining if a vehicle is exceeding the speed limit. Do they make a RADAR gun for HOSP & Starling detection? The same kind of mis-guided emotions come into play with regard to "BB-Guns" and "Pellet Guns". Most times when police get called for one of these incidents, it's a blatant violation since some neighbor has had a window shot out or something. How often to they get calls about people using them responsibly and making sure that any "misses" still result in the BB or pellet staying on the owner's property? Technically, in this state, it it has a rifled barrel, it's considered a "firearm" and therefore prohibited from use in city limits. However, it would be OK to use if the device had a smooth bore, depending on the method of propulsion. Spring and compressed air is OK, propulsion as a result of expanding combustion byproducts is a no-no. I'm anxious to hear more of you findings at the Martin Meet next weekend. Fred

kimball911 · Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:41 am

Kansas Law is similar to other states, whereas you can trap or shoot house sparrows and european starlings, trapping is also included. I personally have trapped 31 sparrows and 11 starlings since March. I have 7 purple martins and 9 babies. If we were not allowed to trap these nuisance birds there is no way I could keep up with nest pulls and just trying to shoo them away. I would have to give up my purple martin hobby. Good luck on changing that law. I really like Texas.....it's illegal not to own a gun.

kimball911 · Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:54 am

Kansas Law is similar to other states, whereas you can trap or shoot house sparrows and european starlings, trapping is also included. I personally have trapped 31 sparrows and 11 starlings since March. I have 7 purple martins and 9 babies. If we were not allowed to trap these nuisance birds there is no way I could keep up with nest pulls and just trying to shoo them away. I would have to give up my purple martin hobby. Good luck on changing that law. I really like Texas.....it's illegal not to own a gun.