Question about cement base for 12 Unit Deluxe Gourd Rack

[Matt@atx]

We have received a new 12 unit deluxe gourd rack with a ground socket from PMCA. It will be holding 12 Troyer verticals on it. For those that know a lot about putting new rack systems up, how much weight in cement should be used to securely hold the pole at it's base?
I beleive the pole is 2" square stainless steel tubing but I have not seen it yet. It's the same 12 unit Deluxe gourd rack advertised on their shopping web page.
Also keep in mind that every year in my mothers area which would be considered central Texas, they always get these strong wind sessions on some night in the Spring time. Last year, one of these wind sessions lasted 3 days. What weight in cement would one wisely use

[~Ray~Gingerich]

Instructions for the 12XL rack are: a hole 9"dia 32-36 inches deep, 4" gravel in bottom then fill hole with cement using three 80lb bags.

I don't agree with those instructions, I think your hole should be 12" dia and 36" deep, then use five 80lb bags, you will have a nice sturdy base that will not move around if the ground gets soft from rain and the wind starts pushing your rack.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

It all depends upon your soil. If you have solid clay, then you don't need much cement. If you have solid sand that is loose, you may need 3 times as much. What kind of soil do you have?

I have a 2-3/8in pipe, and a 9in hole that is about 40 inches deep, and the poles never have moved with 48 gourds on them. The poles never moved during hurricane Ike. We have a soil mixture, but its a lot of black dirt that gets hard as a rock when it gets dry. I used less than 2 bag per hole.

If you have a light gourd rack, you probably have no worries. The heavier your rack & gourds, the more cement you should use. I think that for most cases, the instructions are adequate, but again, it depends upon your soil.

A couple things that may be advisable for you:
1)make the hole deep (as far as you can go with a posthole digger
2)it helps to make the bottm larger, like a bell shape.

[TheCav-MO]

I think Emil hit it on the head. Your soil type will make the most difference. For my T-14 on with 16' foot of pole above ground I augered a 40" deep hole with a 12" auger. Two sacks of quickcrete. I have a laminated wooden pole I made for it. The pole will sway in the wind some but the base never wiggles a bit.
Best of luck to you.

[Peggy Riley]

That's great news Matt! I'm sure your parents will enjoy the new rack.

Peggy

[Matt@atx]

Thanks for the replies all. Nice to see you again Peggy. The soil in this region is very rocky with lime stone. Im not sure if it's particularly soft or hard depending on whether it is wet or dry.
It does get dusty when its real dry though. I do not live at the site and
it looks like my Mother had a guy follow the directions and poured approximately 220 lbs of cement in there. 2 80 lbs bags and about 60 lbs from a 3rd bag which I do not think is enough due to the winds they get but she does not listen to me.
I weigh more then what she had poured out there. Its very frustrating because she does not care what I think though I established the birds there and does what she wants.

[Chriscreole]

I just put up a super system 24, all troyer, I dug a 24" x 36" deep and used 5500 psi rated concrete 800lbs to hold my 3"sq ground stake, filled the stake with same concrete only strained to remove bigger gravel, I also have 4rebarb cross bars to hold rotation. I have photos on my wen site of my install,

[Matt@atx]

Thats called doing it right Chris. Your pole system will stand up well to strong winds. I doubt the one my mom had put in will and this is the only chance to get it right.

Also do not buy anything from Purple Martin Propagators in Austin. They charge a big tax and its been 2 weeks and we still have not recieved our gourds from them though their business is like 30 minutes away since mom lives in Buda.

PMCA charges no tax unless your in Penn., no shipping charges over a $ amount and would have already gotten them to us. At this point, they can keep their gourds and give me mother her money back. We ordered the rack system from PMCA after ordering the gourds from this local honk and the rack system is here, the gourds are not.

[rdhd]

I

[jr 2]

i am close too the ohio river where it is all sand and i dug my holes as far as post hole digger would go and more;;the bigger round the hole the deeper you can go and all i set was a one and three quarter pole for m12k with 4 gourds under it;;jr2

[Jerry Parent]

Hi Matt,

What I do is use crushed rock like many power companies use. Depending how tall your pole is determines the hole depth. For a poles 14 to 16 foot tall, I recommend a five foot hole dug with a 8" auger. First place about 12" of crushed in bottom of hole for drainage. Then place your pole in, level it and fill the surrounding hole with crushed rock and packing it about every foot or so up to ground level. Finish by packing it again and than add more crushed rock to form a cone around the pole. Over time you will have add more rock as needed as compacting takes place. There are many advantages to using this method like move the pole to new location if necessary, great drainage for wooden poles, less messy than cement and easy to straighten a pole if necessary. This method works really well in my sandy soil, so it should work in all soil types. I really recommend this method for wooden poles because of it's drainage. I have used this method for over 12 years with both wooden and metal poles (both round and square). If you have any questions, please post them and I'll try to answer it.

Thanks,

Jerry Parent

[daveh]

Jerry, are you talking about crusher run gravel, about an inch or so in size and has lots of lime with it? It packs down real well. I use to patch my chuckholes in driveway with it. It packed and stayed in holes pretty good.

dave

[Tim Stover]

never seen on here where a pole has blown over with concrete on it pole or groud stake always break i have 4 -20' poles bolted to tee post the ones they use on guard rails 36"in the ground 36" outta the ground 2 bags concrete in each one these are two 30 gourd system and two 24 they stay raised to 18' till storms i lower them to 12' thats the bottom gourds i dont like ground sleeves makes the pole weak where it stops inside or out with the actual pole i have looked at the pictures sleeve snaps or pole does overload is my guess this is my opinion

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I agree with Tim, I have not seen the concrete bend over or pulled out of the ground. What I have seen are bent and broken poles in every case. I don't remember if Steve K had concrete bent over during the storm.

[flyin-lowe]

The good news is the sacks of concrete are very cheap. It only takes a couple more minutes to dig a 12 inch hole that is 36 inches compared to a 9 inch hole, etc. There really isn't much reason to not go a little larger as opposed to going a little smaller. It will only cost you a couple dollars more and a few more minutes of digging. Another thing that was recommended to me and I did was to dig your hole in a bell shape. Once you go straight down to the desired depth you can dig the bottom of the hole wider so the bottom of the hole is larger then the rest of the hole. Then the concrete will be in a bell shaped and will be sturdier.

[~Ray~Gingerich]

I had a gourd rack that would sway in a strong wind much more than I was comfortable with, on a light wind or calm day the base and pole seemed nice and solid. What I found is that in a strong wind there was a combination of pole flex and slight movement of concrete in the ground as the rack rocked back and forth The pole is schedule 40 and did not have a regular ground socket, just the pole stuck into a 30" hole with concrete around the base. I solved the problem by drilling a few holes into the base then inserting rebar up inside the pvc predator guard and filling it with concrete, then I dug around the concrete base and added more concrete. That competely solved the problem. My soil tends to soften up somewhat when wet and if I dig down 36" water starts seeping into the hole, maybe with a different type soil and a regular ground socket it would have been fine? Anyway, I now go a little heavy with the concrete just to be on the safe side. For an extra half hour labor and a few bucks for the extra concrete I'm safe.

[Tim Stover]

that is the way i did it big on the bottom like a bell i also put steel in the concrete

[~Ray~Gingerich]

I think the problem of poles bending over on the ground sleve during a storm would be solved by adding a 4-5 ft outer sleave, that should contain the bending forces on the pole.

[Matt@atx]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. It looks like my mother had a guy plant the ground socket with concrete strictly by the directions. They added 2 80 lb bags plus about 60 lbs from a 3rd bag of concrete.

I do not beleive this was enough. I think 5 80 lb bags for 400 lbs of concrete should have been used. We seem to get windy in the Spring at nights but theres the right way and then there's mom's way which I can never win because I am not there everyday like I would like to be.

Once everything is up, I get to worry about it ALL the time because my Mother listens to no one.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Matt, you sound like a young man, so you may be right, but if Mother pays for it, she should have her choice as to how it should be done. I suggest you slow down on criticizing your mother, she most likely is doing her best with helping you. At this point in time, you must recognize that she could be right or she could be wrong, but we don't know now...