Before You Do Away With Your Porches!

[T Seber]

I know many have decided to go porchless in the recent past, and that is every persons right to do so if they choose too.
Before you make that jump, you may need to consider the other side of the story. Many of us are doing very well indeed with porched, tunneled, sreh.
My colony is a good example, but I am not alone. Some of the best, fastest growing colonies on the Forum are also porched, with tunnels and sreh. For the most part, we have just sat back and listened while this has been discussed.
Not only that, but a number of landlords in my immediate area have copied the style we use. Every single one of them has had good to excellent results.
I have few to no problems with starlings entering my housing. The martins seem to love the porched, tunneled gourds with sreh. My colony will just about match any reported in growth, number of fledglings, etc.
I am not alone, there are others out there who can report the same type results.

Now what am I trying to say????? You use whatever type housing, entrance and so forth you choose to use. I will not even try to tell you what you need to be doing.
I am saying we should be careful in discarding a very effective way of doing martins. I am very well satisfied with my colony and do not plan to change soon.
For those who choose to go porchless, I wish you nothing but the best.

[Guest]

I think you make valid points. I also think that this is one of the fascinating aspects of martin hosting. The creative efforts of members on this forum are really interesting to watch - though individuals may become opinionated by what works for their individual site. I am becoming convinced that martin preferences may be influenced in part by the geographic region of the country, as well as by other local variables.

I know that until I can successfully establish a colony at my site here in Michigan, I will continue to offer a wide variety of housing configurations. I'm not convinced that there is any best choice, but variety can't hurt, and it might just help.

Jeff

[CraigMo.]

I use porches on all my supergourds and will always unless Starlings start getting thru my crescent opennings. So far I have never seen a starling enter one, but have seen them try very hard. I like porches for 3 reasons. 1 adds perching 2 might make it easier for pms to enter crescent openning 3 could protect nestlings inside the gourd- flying predators-owls

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Craig, I feel the direct opposite about porches protecting nestilings from predators. Sometimes 3 or 4 babies crawl out on the porch, and when a hawk comes, they are extremely easy for the hawk to snatch. The nestiings don't even attempt to get back in when the hawks grab them.

I agree that porches makes it easier for martins to enter, BUT it also makes it much easier for starlings to enter. Because starlings also use the porches, its extremely important that proper placement of the porches be followed. Example: If a porch is at 1/2inch below the entrance, many starlings can easily enter. If you use a porch, I would definitely recommend that you place it less than 1/4in below the entrance, or at least 1-1/2in above the porch, obviously to help stop the starlings with their long legs. The martins have short legs so they can get into the entrances that are near the flush mount. They can fly up to the entrances that are higher or at least 1-1/2in. We have small starlings here in Texas that can enter if the porches are in the WRONG location.

I agree that the martins like to use the porch as perches.

[CraigMo.]

Hi Emil , I have really never had any nestlings hang out on the outside porch that I have seen on my supergourds. Yes they sit on the inside porch sticking their heads out waiting for food. I agree porch placement might need to be set at a certain spot. Now if you are talking about a porch on like my Grandpa , yes I have seen them on those porches. I am sure this is a possibility for a predator to get them. I do know when the adult martins call out their warning calls the babies do run back inside of the compartment. Again I will change anything if needed to keep a starling out or other dangers. Oh yeah I do have an owl guard on my grandpa which has to help a little on making an hawk attack a little more difficult. I have seen many attempts by hawks at my last site for adult pms, so you know the hawks have gotten them before or why would they be coming back. Just have not witnessed it yet.

[T Seber]

Emil:
Not to be argumentative, because I don't mean to be but I have never seen a hawk catch a nestling off a porch. Others may have, but I have not.
Also, I believe Craig was talking about owls in his post

Edit: Neither have I seen a nestling get out on a gourd porch until time came for them to fledge. They get out on my Trio porches but not on my gourd porches.
I don't know all about porches but have been using them for a few years now.

[Guest]

Is it possible that the extreme heat in Texas causes baby martins to be more inclined to sit outside the housing cavity on the porch? That would seem to make sense and reafirm what I said earlier about the differences in geographic regions.

Jeff

[CraigMo.]

You might be right Jeff.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I think the babies sit outside only for 1 day, possibly 2 days at most, they do that right before the fledge, and if about 3 are outside, and the alarm is given, the hawk appears so fast that there is no way possible for the babies to get back in. Even 1 would be very lucky to get back in before the hawk appears. These hawks show up so fast, I can be sitting outside, and they are in the middle of the housing before I can see them. I think that there are so many variables, but in my case, they sneak over the house, and my poles are about 30ft from the single story house. That is why I always recommend that the poles be away from the house. Every site is different and every hawk situation is different, so what you see at your place probably is not true at my place. I would not report the problem if it did not exist at my house.

I purposely put the housing near my house for better starling and sparrow control. If I have a starling or sparrow that I cannot trap, I am forced to use my pellet gun, its easier to hit them if they are close. What helps in that case hurts the hawk situation. When I cemented the poles in place, I had never heard of a trap, so things change but I am not going to attempt to move my poles.

I too like to use porches, but if there is an entrance that martins can enter more easily that the excluder, and if they can enter it porchless very easy, then I sure don't need the porches. I believe in keeping things as simple, cheap, and easy to maintain as possible. The martins can get used to being porchless, just as they got used to having porches. They like to use what they used last year, whether its porches or porchless, and the size of the colony has no bearing on that. They really are picky about coming back home from S. America and finding exactly what they left last year, and that is what they like best.

Lets go the opposite way. Suppose the martins were used to having porchless gourds that they could enter easily. They would resist the Excluder type of entrances, and they would surely fill up the porchless gourds before they would spend a few hours trying to learn how to navigate a porched excluder.

[Adam Romain]

On my gourd porches, I have seen nestlings out on the porches about a week before they fledge. They like to go out and sit and watch what's going on. As I walk around the setup, they quickly scurry back into the gourd and have come close to knocking each other off the porch.

Moreover, I have found nestlings in the yard, days or a week prior to their projected fledge date, unable to fly and I return them to their gourd. Gourds were vented with no mites when this occurred.

Maybe my definition for nestling or fledgling isn't the same??? For whatever it's worth, these are some of my observations!

[T Seber]

Emil:
Going the opposite way, if you were all porchless, and if it seemed to be working perfectly for you, I would certainly not try to convince you to change to porches
Your opinion is respected and valued by me and by others. I know you gave porched, tunneled, sreh a try last year and have learned much from your time with them.
I do not doubt your word when you say hawks are catching nestlings off your gourd porches. But, I also have an opinion and mine is not the same as yours. We have been friends a long time, let's keep it that way. I count you a friend much beyond porches or no porches :-)
I will use porches until I see a real reason not too. So far, I just haven't seen that real reason. Starlings are not getting in my gourds. my martins are thriving.
It really doesn't concern me, nor bother me, if a single other landlord uses porches or not. I am just presenting the other side of the thinking on this, and I know there is more than one way to look at things.

[Guest]

Thurman, you are a great landlord and I value your opinion. I also agree that if things are working great at a landlord's site it seems wasteful to abandon what you have in place.

A point or two that is only my opinion. (it has already been established that I don't know what I'm talking about! <smile>) The testing so far has shown that porchless seems to stop starlings better than SREH with porches. I believe it was Steve K. that stated they used Crescent entances without porches exclusively on their satellite colonies that can't be monitored as closely due to their increased resistance to starling entry (I certainly don't want to put words in anyones mouth but that is the way I understood Steve's comments). To me it makes since that a SREH with a flat bottom would be easier to use from the cling position than one with "pips" on the bottom. Another issue, SREH with "pips" on the bottom of the entrance are covered by a patent so it limits their use by mfgs and discourages many landlords from using them as well. Anyhow, the other SREH options are attractive to the martin community at large.

I know that many have used porches and SREH with great success.......and some folks have used SREH without porches with great success. Is there another option? Can you have a porch and still get the starling resistance of using a SREH from the cling position?

It's been noted that if you place a SREH above the porch far enough that a starling can't touch the porch for assistance entering the SREH then it would be as effective as a porchless entrance. More testing needs to occur before this height is established but it's probably around 1.5" - 2" above the porch which would be a very nice height for a martin to feed nestlings. Now would a martin rather step/hop up to an entrance and rotate through or squat and belly crawl through an entrance numerous times a day? I guess I don't know the answer to that......but I have an opinion. <smile>

I believe that if you offer porches exclusively and then offer a SREH that must be used from a cling position that the martins will have to learn to use the SREH from a cling position. I'm sure the reverse of that is true as well (learn to belly crawl). I have many porches with SREH at my site and I'm not throwing them away but on new purchases I'm going to add either porchless or with the entrance a couple of inches above the porch.

Thurman, I sure hope I'm as successful with my colony as you have been with yours. I wish you the best and hope you keep us updated on your season. I want a copy of your book and have just never got around to ordering it!

[Guest]

I don't suppose it would be practical to install revolving doors and train martins to use them, would it? On second thought, I personally have trouble with revolving doors. I get in them OK, but somehow I can't find the exit and get stuck going in circles! Oh well.....

Jeff

[Brad-AL]

I started using porches 4 years ago. My first year I put up 8 gourds. Four had crescent holes and four had obround holes. I attracted 2 nesting pairs of Martins, and had no Starlings nest even though so many tried to enter my gourds they scratched the paint off below the entrance hole. I cut the holes in the gourds myself and all were oversized. The next year I found the PMCA forum and decided I needed porches on everything. I also found out about tunnels that year from reading things posted by Terry Washburn and Thurman Seber. I tried some of those too. I did not get any birds back where I was living at the time and I put up my first gourd rack here at the farm where I live now. That first year I had 4 pair of Martins and 3 pairs of Starlings all in slightly (.0030") oversized crescents. The Starlings gained access to the holes that were oversized thanks to the porches. The next season I invested in a router table and borrowed a good set of digital calipers from a machinist friend. I also started using the WDC entrance. This is now my fourth season at the farm, and my third season with accurately cut and calipered WDC entrances. All my gourds have tunnels with porches. I grew from 4 pair in 2003 to 67 pair in 2006. I hope to break 100 pair this season. I have not had ONE single Starling enter any gourd since I started cutting my WDC's 1.1875 +/- .0025. If one mic's out larger than that, it goes in the garbage. All my porches are 1/4 below the entrace. My opinion is that folks can use what they wish to, but I do get tired of folks being so negative about porches. They sure work here, and have served me well. From some of the things I've read on here this winter, you'd think porches were the next thing to the plague. I have used them for 4 years and have not seen one fledgling sitting on any porch and have not had a single fallout. I know that must happen at other places as it gets talked about on this forum from time to time, but it has not happened here. If porches don't work at your place I'd invite you to measure with good quality calipers the size of your entrance hole and to check the distance the porch is below the hole. Most factory cut entrances that I have measured vary a bit from one to the next. I also think that it's possible that Starlings are learning how to enter certain entrances. I know they can turn sideways and enter a crescent or obround. All entrances that fall under the Excluder patent have the "pips" on the bottom which prevent that from happening.

Brad

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Folks, I really don't care what the experienced landlords use, they are going to use what works for them, they will continue to think that their way is the best way, and I felt the same way.

I did not condemm the porchless idea with the clinger before I tried it, I doubted that it would work, but I tried it anyway. I found out in all of my tests that it works excellently to keep out starlings when used porchless. I also witnessed that the martins can enter it with ease. Thats all that I am saying.

If a person never used it, never tested it, never intends to try it, or never has used it, then thats their option. It would be so much more meaningful to me if they did not like it after they did the testing, using, trying, etc. I personally like to try new ideas, and if progress will ever be made in any area, new ideas must be tested and tried. I think that if we had the same opinion of the crescent when it came out, that everyone would still be using round holes. I absolutely am not running down the SREH that so many are using, but if I find something that I like better, I will sure tell everyone about it. I respect you Thurman, Brad, and many others very much, and value you friendship. I do not think that I am criticizing your equipment, your setups, your methods in any way, in fact, I will be the first to tell you that all of you are excellent landlords. I am simply recommending what I personally think is the best at this time. I have been wrong before, and on some occasions, I have been right. Its much easier to take a stand against something new, than it is to go thru all the trouble to try it in many ways, to test it, and to recommend something new to people that never have used it. By the way, I carry no grudges, I have nothing but my pride involved in recommending this, I am not part of the group that are making these products. I am involved in this for one reason only, and that is to improve martin housing in any way that I can. I often seen animosity between the various forums, but I think we should all forget that, and work together to help the martins.

[Al Denton]

Here's the thing that confuses me about the porch....I thought some time back the train of thought changed concerning perches(porches) on bird houses. Perches were not recommended outside entrance holes, and birds didn't need them to enter if the entrance hole was of the precise size. The perch allows other predators to sit and harass the parents and baby birds insides, perhaps even killing them. It makes good sense, so why are Martins any different than all the other compartment nesting birds. Not trying to argue guys, but it's just confusing Is there a difference between a porch and a perch?

[Brad-AL]

Emil, I respect and value the testing that you have done with all the SREH. That does mean a lot and I don't discount that at all. You have a large colony and what housing you offer and gets tested on a daily basis by your Martins means a lot too. I did not mean to imply anything else, and was not directing anything I said at you. I was probably among the earliest landlords to convert 100% to WDC after they became commercially available. I like testing things to, and I will gladly give another SREH a look see if and when the WDC's let me down. I tried some WDC's with a cling type plate on the fronts of my tunnels and they were not well accepted. I can't comment much on entrances cut directly into a gourd. I haven't used them for several years and have no intention of ever going back to that. I guess what I'm trying to convey, is that given a choice, Martins at my site have always preferred a porched gourd. I have a neighbor up the road who has had Martins for at least 20 years. I remember that because I use to date his neice, and I use to watch his Martins when we would be over there. At any rate, my colony is much the same as his. Both are open, both have a pond close by, and both have only gourds for housing. He uses round holes and controls Starlings by shooting. He normally has 32 gourds up and averages 20-25 pair. The only differences in my gourds and his are that mine have tunnels with porches. I started a colony very close to his and should quadruple his normal nesting numbers this year.

I guess my whole point in all of this is that in my opinion, based on my limited experience, Martins prefer a porched entrance. Everyone has the right to do things like they see fit. I don't have any intentions of changing anyones mind. Since I hadn't already, I just wanted to voice my opinon on the subject.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Good, Brad, we are still buddies!

[Guest]

Just put the porch low enough the stars cannot use their legs. If you want a porch that will not help them. Only if you want to or need to or just like to experiment.

[T Seber]

No offence taken Emil, and none meant to you.
I try to fix what I believe to be broken and my way of offering sreh seems to me to be humming right along. It sure doesn't seem broken to me so I guess I won't try to fix it.
Shucks, I don't even care what everyone else uses. To each his own preference I suppose.
By the way, I use to use 6x6 compartments and round holes so I have made some changes over the years
Best wishes Emil and all. I have nothing else to add. I started this thread with an opinion to offer, I have done so. I had no intention of starting a feud so I guess I will just drop out of this one

Edit: One final thought
A martin colony can experience good, rapid, and positive growth with porched sreh. Perhaps the same is true with porchless sreh. Time will tell.