Uh OH!! need opinions on Starling nestlings
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Guest
I've been fooled by a starling's nest-- looked similar to other PM nests in my larger cavities and I didn't see eggs until --- Lo an behold, I have 4 starling nestlings. I have 9 PM nests with eggs (pearly white) and one set of newborn PM's. The problem is with the starlings nest. I live in a neighborhood and in Louisiana, where recent posts indicate that Starlings are "protected" in this misinformed state. Should I leave the nest alone as the starlings are not being aggressive at this point toward the PM's?? Has anyone seen starlings raised in the same house as PM's? I hate that I've been fooled, but I'd hate to make a starling aggressive at this point.
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
I would not let the starlings stay there if they were at my house.
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CUL Lou~Mich
If they were at my house, I'd take a small plastic grocery sack, and the whole mess would be in it. (Yes, babies, and nest material.) I'd then tie it up close, then put it into another sack, then the garbage can. I personally think someone is pretty misguided to make a law protecting this scum. CUL Lou
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kimball911
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:33 pm
- Location: Kansas/Iola
I didn't think starlings were protected anywhere....are you sure? I also would bag them up and take a little stroll by the trash can.
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John Barrow
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:12 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi / Sandia , Texas
Hi Joan.
You set forth several false reasons to not remove the starling nest. First, starlings are not a protected species in LA. Secondly, your removal of their nest is not going to cause revenge like sparrow revenge syndrome. Starlings need no provacation to attack martin nests. They are advanced interspecific competitors and they will attack martins and their eggs without provacation. If you have not seen this you perhaps host young starlings. Rest assured that if they are allowed to successfully reproduce, your systems will belong to them next year and you will have few or no martins.
PMCA recommends that you do weekly nestchecks and that you eliminate starlings and sparrows. Those are both sound recommendations to build a growing colony. It is hard for me to believe that if you were attuned to what was happening at your colony, you did not realize that you had starlings occupying your systems by either seeing them or seeing their eggs and much larger nests during nestchecks. You say you have 9 martin nests with "pearly white" eggs. That might be the scenario you hope for. But if you saw those how did you miss the blue starling eggs?
I did a nestcheck on a system in Texas last weekend. The week before martins had 4 eggs in a gourd. Last weekend I found a starling nest, minus the martin eggs and martins, and the 5 eggs in each adjoining gourd were also missing. Removing the starlings-through shooting--will enable thoee martins to renest and produce a likely smaller clutch. Allowing the starlings to "peacefully coincide" would have been a death sentence to that martin system.
You have a choice to make. Either you raise martins or you raise starlings. Best of luck. John
You set forth several false reasons to not remove the starling nest. First, starlings are not a protected species in LA. Secondly, your removal of their nest is not going to cause revenge like sparrow revenge syndrome. Starlings need no provacation to attack martin nests. They are advanced interspecific competitors and they will attack martins and their eggs without provacation. If you have not seen this you perhaps host young starlings. Rest assured that if they are allowed to successfully reproduce, your systems will belong to them next year and you will have few or no martins.
PMCA recommends that you do weekly nestchecks and that you eliminate starlings and sparrows. Those are both sound recommendations to build a growing colony. It is hard for me to believe that if you were attuned to what was happening at your colony, you did not realize that you had starlings occupying your systems by either seeing them or seeing their eggs and much larger nests during nestchecks. You say you have 9 martin nests with "pearly white" eggs. That might be the scenario you hope for. But if you saw those how did you miss the blue starling eggs?
I did a nestcheck on a system in Texas last weekend. The week before martins had 4 eggs in a gourd. Last weekend I found a starling nest, minus the martin eggs and martins, and the 5 eggs in each adjoining gourd were also missing. Removing the starlings-through shooting--will enable thoee martins to renest and produce a likely smaller clutch. Allowing the starlings to "peacefully coincide" would have been a death sentence to that martin system.
You have a choice to make. Either you raise martins or you raise starlings. Best of luck. John
~~TEAMED WITH A MARTIN GODDESS~~
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
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CUL Lou~Mich
John. Apparently you didn't read the post a few weeks ago about Starlings, and Sparrows now being protected in the state of Louisiana. Some knot headed senator pushed (Or was pushing) a bill through legislature protecting them. I'm NOT positive whether it made this forum or not, but it certainly did one of the forums. There was quite the stir about it for a few days. CUL Lou
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Dale Hrncirik
Lou,
I think the confusion lies in the fact that they are protected from "cruel and inhumane treatment" as are most all animals. I really don't think they are protected when it comes to shooting, trapping and euthanizing. I'd like to see that link again if I am wrong.
Dale
I think the confusion lies in the fact that they are protected from "cruel and inhumane treatment" as are most all animals. I really don't think they are protected when it comes to shooting, trapping and euthanizing. I'd like to see that link again if I am wrong.
Dale
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John Barrow
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:12 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi / Sandia , Texas
Lou, thank you for bumping the starling legislation in LA post. I do remember it vaguely, and have read the entire thread. With that in mind, Joan asked for opinions about allowing starlings to continue nesting in her martin system. I expressed my opinion and nothing I have read today changes that opinion as expressed.
In stating that starlings are not protected in LA, I recognize the federal authority to regulate all migratory birds under the international treaty. While a state can pass ordinances that change those regulations there must be some specific nexus between that law and the authority to pass criminal laws--to protect the health. safety and interests of the public. I agree with Dale that cruelty to any animal upsets the moral fiber of the community, but it would seem to apply it in the context quoted the birds would almost need to be held as captives (caged) for the proper nexus to exist to justify the existance of the ordinace in the first place that would impose criminal sanctions against a person doing what federal law allows.
Secondly, and I don't how the laws in LA address the scenario, and the laws there are unique to say the least, but most states now assign jurisdiction over wildlife in the state exclucively to their wildlife department, and reading the state ordinance that Mark referenced would indicate this to be the case in LA. Assigning that authority to the wildlife department is sound management, in that it takes control of wildlife away from the whims of politicians and allows decisions to be made by qualified biologists and wardens with expertise in the area. I know this to be the trend throughout the country.
Finally, I have worked with people in a number of states that are involved with wild birds in some capacity--as ornithologists, biologists or game wardens. I have yet to meet a one who does not believe that house sparrows and starlings are a menace to native songbirds and should be removed whenever possible in any lawful manner (a manner that does not threaten the health and safety of the community). If I lived in LA, and assuming they offer full protection to wild starlings, I would not be overly concerned about their finding a great following of authorities to enforce the law.
One exception to the above rules that I know of--pigeons along the San Antonio riverwalk, where they are part of the "established community scenery". And they are comical. Anyone travelling through should enjoy a meal along the river. Turn your head away for second, go to the restroom, or just get up to stretch and the pigeons will enjoy the rest of your dinner. They are a blight for restuaranteurs and I suspect their current local protection will be short lived. But its a great show while it lasts.
Lou, I hope you find good health and best to all. jb
In stating that starlings are not protected in LA, I recognize the federal authority to regulate all migratory birds under the international treaty. While a state can pass ordinances that change those regulations there must be some specific nexus between that law and the authority to pass criminal laws--to protect the health. safety and interests of the public. I agree with Dale that cruelty to any animal upsets the moral fiber of the community, but it would seem to apply it in the context quoted the birds would almost need to be held as captives (caged) for the proper nexus to exist to justify the existance of the ordinace in the first place that would impose criminal sanctions against a person doing what federal law allows.
Secondly, and I don't how the laws in LA address the scenario, and the laws there are unique to say the least, but most states now assign jurisdiction over wildlife in the state exclucively to their wildlife department, and reading the state ordinance that Mark referenced would indicate this to be the case in LA. Assigning that authority to the wildlife department is sound management, in that it takes control of wildlife away from the whims of politicians and allows decisions to be made by qualified biologists and wardens with expertise in the area. I know this to be the trend throughout the country.
Finally, I have worked with people in a number of states that are involved with wild birds in some capacity--as ornithologists, biologists or game wardens. I have yet to meet a one who does not believe that house sparrows and starlings are a menace to native songbirds and should be removed whenever possible in any lawful manner (a manner that does not threaten the health and safety of the community). If I lived in LA, and assuming they offer full protection to wild starlings, I would not be overly concerned about their finding a great following of authorities to enforce the law.
One exception to the above rules that I know of--pigeons along the San Antonio riverwalk, where they are part of the "established community scenery". And they are comical. Anyone travelling through should enjoy a meal along the river. Turn your head away for second, go to the restroom, or just get up to stretch and the pigeons will enjoy the rest of your dinner. They are a blight for restuaranteurs and I suspect their current local protection will be short lived. But its a great show while it lasts.
Lou, I hope you find good health and best to all. jb
~~TEAMED WITH A MARTIN GODDESS~~
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
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Guest
Are you all pretty sure that if the starling nestlings are removed, the adult starlings won't go on a rampage hurting the PM's??? That is my greatest concern. Thanks for all your feedback.---Joan
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Guest
Joan,
If your main concern really is the possibility of starling revenge by the adults then you can use this as an excellent opportunity! Many people and companies build traps just to catch starlings in a particular place. Well you now have a GREAT idea where that starling pair is located(especially just after sunrise, etc).
Using the "long pole and cup' routine you could catch the pair with the hatchlings at the same time. Using some kind of blocking device(bag, cloth, cup, etc) you could cover the exit to their nest and then lower the house and handle the situation.
At this point your hardest task is simply choosing a time when the pair is in the nest. It sounds like you are well on your way to resolving this problem.
Good Luck
Longbow
If your main concern really is the possibility of starling revenge by the adults then you can use this as an excellent opportunity! Many people and companies build traps just to catch starlings in a particular place. Well you now have a GREAT idea where that starling pair is located(especially just after sunrise, etc).
Using the "long pole and cup' routine you could catch the pair with the hatchlings at the same time. Using some kind of blocking device(bag, cloth, cup, etc) you could cover the exit to their nest and then lower the house and handle the situation.
At this point your hardest task is simply choosing a time when the pair is in the nest. It sounds like you are well on your way to resolving this problem.
Good Luck
Longbow
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Guest
Joan,
I would ABSOLUTLY, WITH NO HESITATION, OR THOUGHT, remove those starling babies, and nest, and like others have said, put the whole thing in a bag & put it in my trash can. Don't even look at them, just grab the whole thing and throw it away.
IF you let those starling babies fledge, that will be 4 or 5 more starlings, going out into the "NATIVE BIRD" popluation, killing our wonderful martins, woodpeckers and other native birds who are un-able to defend themselves from these aggressive "NON-NATIVE" species.
Did you know the nickname for the starling is "BUTCHER BIRD". It's because of their killing nature and the fact that they have that long yellow sword beak, long legs, and stocky body. Do you realize of the tremendous decline in our native bird species because of the invasion of these aggressive non-native species? Please help our native birds, and get rid of that trash in your martin housing. Martins and starlings CANNOT co-exsist. Would you leave out food and water for cockroaches in your kitchen?????? Not much difference. If you have EVER seen pictures of martin adults & babies with their heads pecked open from these starlings, you would go out there right now & throw those nasty starling babies & the whole nest in the trash!!!
If you can't stand the thougth of the babies being in there, remove them, put them in a bag, and whack the bag real hard against the concrete. Instantly it's over, then throw it in the trash.
I would ABSOLUTLY, WITH NO HESITATION, OR THOUGHT, remove those starling babies, and nest, and like others have said, put the whole thing in a bag & put it in my trash can. Don't even look at them, just grab the whole thing and throw it away.
IF you let those starling babies fledge, that will be 4 or 5 more starlings, going out into the "NATIVE BIRD" popluation, killing our wonderful martins, woodpeckers and other native birds who are un-able to defend themselves from these aggressive "NON-NATIVE" species.
Did you know the nickname for the starling is "BUTCHER BIRD". It's because of their killing nature and the fact that they have that long yellow sword beak, long legs, and stocky body. Do you realize of the tremendous decline in our native bird species because of the invasion of these aggressive non-native species? Please help our native birds, and get rid of that trash in your martin housing. Martins and starlings CANNOT co-exsist. Would you leave out food and water for cockroaches in your kitchen?????? Not much difference. If you have EVER seen pictures of martin adults & babies with their heads pecked open from these starlings, you would go out there right now & throw those nasty starling babies & the whole nest in the trash!!!
If you can't stand the thougth of the babies being in there, remove them, put them in a bag, and whack the bag real hard against the concrete. Instantly it's over, then throw it in the trash.
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Peggy Riley
- Posts: 885
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:21 pm
- Location: TX/Tolar
Joan, they don't like to be bothered, they will think there has been a predator around. I bet they will go elsewhere and leave the others alone. SREH's would help. Anyway you can change the holes?
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Guest
I appreciate the input!!!!!!! In Louisiana, we are going to have to get an organized group to contact our legislators and get the starlings and house sparrows removed from protected status and get PM's added. In this post Katrina oriented legislature, it may be daunting for a year or so. However, as I do know some of them personally, I will bend their ears. You all have given me great insight... This is my 2nd year as a landlord, and I really did not see the eggs at the back of a large compartment in which the nest looked like a PM's. It's easy to identify an enemy nest when the straw fills up the compartment, but this one was all low and rather neat. I consider this a hard lesson to learn, but one I'll never forget. Thanks again for your help!
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Dale Hrncirik
Joan,
I find it hard to believe they are protected in your state as they are not federally protected birds. Do you have a link on the net that shows they are protected? I'm not trying to 2nd guess you but the earlier thread about starling protection in LA was concerning "animal cruelty". That does not mean they cannot be disposed of humanely.
Please listen to John Barrow if you feel my words don't hold water. He won't steer you wrong.
Dale
I find it hard to believe they are protected in your state as they are not federally protected birds. Do you have a link on the net that shows they are protected? I'm not trying to 2nd guess you but the earlier thread about starling protection in LA was concerning "animal cruelty". That does not mean they cannot be disposed of humanely.
Please listen to John Barrow if you feel my words don't hold water. He won't steer you wrong.
Dale
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Glen Webb Jr
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:03 pm
- Location: Illinois/Stewardson
Joan, a similar instance happened to me the other day and I am all eyes and ears with my colony. Very little escapes my attention when it comes to my colony.
But last week was a busy week and my colony had to do without me. I would return from work around 6 or 7 pm and quickly look over the colony. I noticed Tuesday of last week that a pair of martins in a Troyer horizontal w/ SREH opening did not return to roost. Ditto for Wednesday and Thursday. I thought it was very weird that a pair would give up and leave the colony, not to mention that no other martin would go near the gourd. I lowered the rack as I knew there was a martin nest in there and sure enough there was a martin nest looking all fine and pretty. But in the center of the nest bowl was a thick padding of snipped grass, green weeds, sprouts, etc. I poked and prodded at the "stuff" and felt some large lumps. Hidden under the fresh greenery were four large white eggs w/ a slight hint of blue. But I seriously thought they were martin eggs at first. I studied and thought about this. It was large enough to be starling eggs, but with no martin eggs in any other nest, I could not compare. They were basically as white as a martin egg, but in my mind they seemed too large for a martin. So I left them be and on Friday when I worked a half day, I returned home at noon to see two starlings sitting in front of the Troyer gourd. Immediately I noticed two ASY martins trying to fight the starlings off in vain. Within ten minutes of my return home both starlings were dead, the eggs and greenery was discarded and the martins that lost their nest Monday morning returned to adding material to their nest.
I could not believe these starlings slipped in undetected. Never once did I see a starling in the morning or evening when I left/returned from work. And as far as the starling's nest versus the martin's nest...I have never seen much difference in the shape and quality of the nest. I've had starlings slip in undetected before in years past, just not to the point of egg-laying, and their nests, regardless of the size, do look a lot like martin nests, so I could see where there would be some confusion.
But yes, DO get rid of them soon. I've dealt with the heartbreak before of seeing martins killed by starlings. I think I'd rather see them caught by a Cooper's hawk than killed by a scumbeak and it's filthy finchy cousin.
But last week was a busy week and my colony had to do without me. I would return from work around 6 or 7 pm and quickly look over the colony. I noticed Tuesday of last week that a pair of martins in a Troyer horizontal w/ SREH opening did not return to roost. Ditto for Wednesday and Thursday. I thought it was very weird that a pair would give up and leave the colony, not to mention that no other martin would go near the gourd. I lowered the rack as I knew there was a martin nest in there and sure enough there was a martin nest looking all fine and pretty. But in the center of the nest bowl was a thick padding of snipped grass, green weeds, sprouts, etc. I poked and prodded at the "stuff" and felt some large lumps. Hidden under the fresh greenery were four large white eggs w/ a slight hint of blue. But I seriously thought they were martin eggs at first. I studied and thought about this. It was large enough to be starling eggs, but with no martin eggs in any other nest, I could not compare. They were basically as white as a martin egg, but in my mind they seemed too large for a martin. So I left them be and on Friday when I worked a half day, I returned home at noon to see two starlings sitting in front of the Troyer gourd. Immediately I noticed two ASY martins trying to fight the starlings off in vain. Within ten minutes of my return home both starlings were dead, the eggs and greenery was discarded and the martins that lost their nest Monday morning returned to adding material to their nest.
I could not believe these starlings slipped in undetected. Never once did I see a starling in the morning or evening when I left/returned from work. And as far as the starling's nest versus the martin's nest...I have never seen much difference in the shape and quality of the nest. I've had starlings slip in undetected before in years past, just not to the point of egg-laying, and their nests, regardless of the size, do look a lot like martin nests, so I could see where there would be some confusion.
But yes, DO get rid of them soon. I've dealt with the heartbreak before of seeing martins killed by starlings. I think I'd rather see them caught by a Cooper's hawk than killed by a scumbeak and it's filthy finchy cousin.
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Guest
Fear not everyone!!! I am a PURPLE MARTIN landlord!! I heed good advice... I have happy martins now!!!!
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John Barrow
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:12 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi / Sandia , Texas
Hi Joan.
You have won the battle, but not the war. Raising martins will present you with new and different obstacles each season. But in striving to protect them as you have declared, you have set in course, after difficult decisions, a path that will help protect and nurture perhaps one of the greatest treasures that you might receive in your life.
I wish you and your colony the best, for always. john
You have won the battle, but not the war. Raising martins will present you with new and different obstacles each season. But in striving to protect them as you have declared, you have set in course, after difficult decisions, a path that will help protect and nurture perhaps one of the greatest treasures that you might receive in your life.
I wish you and your colony the best, for always. john
~~TEAMED WITH A MARTIN GODDESS~~
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)