Sparrow Questions

[Guest]

Hello Everyone,

Newbie here. I think I read somewhere on here that there are native sparrows. I went to the library to get a book on birds so that I can identify but I'm still confused. Are there native sparrows and English sparrows? Or are they one and the same? Unfortunately, I think I have been feeding the sparrows all winter. I am now educated about what to feed the native birds that I would like to keep around. But my neighbor has several birdfeeders in her backyard and I surely cannot ask her to use only certain seeds.

I put up a PM house for the first time this year (working on my gourds still). The sparrows are not going anywhere near my PM house. My house has a screened-in porch that is about 1 off the ground with lattice board underneath and this is where the sparrows seem to go.

My questions is - do I have to destroy all sparrows?

Thanks,
cw

[roblrich]

The Old World Weaver Finch is indeed, the English Sparrow, the same term for them I was raised to learn. Terminate with all prejudice.

No, do not destroy all sparrows, only the English Sparrow. If identifying birds isn't a strong point, one can't miss the black beard of a male English Sparrow. Concentrate on them as if you kill the male, the female will leave.

[DAKdude]

Hi CW,

Rob is correct. Don't destroy all sparrows! Not only is it bad for the ecosystem it is illegal! The confusion for you is the word Sparrow. Sparrow is a common name given to many small birds and does not always connote genetic or evolutionary relationships. The English or House Sparrow is not a true sparrow but an old world passerine that is in the weaver finch family. Native North American Sparrows are in the family Embrizidae. They do not nest in cavities and are "open cup" nesters so they are no threat to purple martins at all. The House Sparrow is a cavity nester, is larger than most NA sparrows and much more aggressive. It is also almost always associated with human habitation so it is often the first to find and move into a new martin house. Once you look at them in the guide books you should be able to identify them quite readily. House Sparrow were introduced to North America a hundred years ago and have spread across the continent and are an agricultural pest. Since they are not native they are not covered under the International Migratory Bird Treaty and can be legally disposed of. Any native sparrow is protected by the IMBT and it is a Federal offense to kill, keep in captivity, molest, buy or sell them.

Learn to identify the house sparrow and european starling and protect your Martin colony from them. If the bird is entering your martin house, then it is not a native sparrow. Also be sure to be able to identify bluebirds, tree swallows, Great Crested Flycatchers and female or SY male martins that may also use the compartments of your martin housing so you do not harm them either.

Good luck
Sincerely
James

[CUL Lou~Mich]

CW. Do a google search for Bird Identification. Once there, you should find a page that's Patuxent (or close to that spelling.) Go there. Look at the list of birds. You will see Sparrows, (Chipping, Tree etc) Then further down, you will see Old World Sparrow, or English House Sparrow. That is the one and only Sparrow you are allowed, and encouraged to eliminate. Also the European Starling, is to be eliminated. I think that one just shows up at Starling in the bird id. I just looked at my Peterson bird id book. It lists a bunch of Sparrows, and when it comes to "English" it says "See Sparrow, House." So look for those combinations. English, House, or Weaver Finch. Also, even though the bib is a good indicator, there are some of our Sparrows who have a smaller bib. The English House Sparrow will have a bib that covers nearly his whole chest. Our Sparrows, you have to look fairly closely to see the bib. ALso, and a very annoying part of the EHS is the way he sits and hollars Cheep, Cheep, Cheep. No song, no melody. Another thing. Tearing his nest out does very little good. He'll just haul it back in, before you're back in the house nearly. The best thing to do is either toss the nest into your garbage can, or burn it, provided that is safe. CUL Lou

[CUL Lou~Mich]

Here's a good site for bird identification.
http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/Infocenter/infocenter.html
CUL Lou

[Guest]

Hi folks,

I guess it's time for my semi-annual taxonomy 101 guide to debunking the myth that the House Sparrow is somehow related to Weavers, Finches or Weaver Finches. This will be hard to swallow for some, but taxonomists have placed the House Sparrow in the True Sparrows family, as we shall see:

This is just one link where I was able to find the FAMILY information. It identifies the House Sparrow as a True Sparrow (with all other True Sparrows - Passers):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passer

Here are the results of my searches:

House Sparrow:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Aves
Order: Passeriformes
Family: Passeridae

Weaver Birds:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Aves
Order: Passeriformes
Family: Ploceidae

Finches:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Aves
Order: Passeriformes
Family: Fringillidae

Weaver Finch - redirected:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Aves
Order: Passeriformes
Family: Estrildidae

Please correct me if I am missing something, as I seem to have to repeat this every few months and haven't had a valid rebuttal.

Thank you,
Mark

[klcretired]

cw,
there are also pic's on the pmca archives of the ES and starling nasties for you to see.

[roblrich]

I was raised to call a skunk a "Pole-cat", and I know a skunk isn't in the cat family at all. But I still call them pole-cats.

But I googled 'Old World Weaver Finch' and this was the first response. Didn't take long to find out why HOSP's are called 'Weavers' or are considered to be in the 'Weaver Group'. It's the way they weave their nests.

http://www.birdingguide.com/bird_famili ... inches.htm

Weaver Finches
? HABITAT AND RANGE:worldwide, except Australia and Pacific Islands, in woods and scrub
? DESCRIPTION:11-19 cm; bill conical, sharply pointed; wide variety of plumages with various streaking and/or red or yellow predominating; male often more colorful than female;
? FOOD:feed on seeds, buds and fruits and some insects
? BREEDING:unusual or unpredictable breeding seasons; most spp. gregarious and many nomadic; monogamous; 2-7 eggs; biparental care.


weaver bird, name for the Ploceidae, a family of Old World seed-eating birds closely resembling finches (hence the alternate name weaver finch). It includes a number of so-called goldfinches and waxbill finches that are actually weaver birds, rather than true finches of the family Fringillidae. The weavers are named for the highly complex woven nests built by many species, though others build only crude nests, and the parasitic widow weavers build no nests at all. Most weavers are sedentary, noisy, gregarious, and polygynous, with elaborate courtship rituals. The weaver group is divided into the buffalo, sparrow, typical, and widow weavers. The African buffalo weavers are black-and-brown birds 8 to 10 in. (20.3?25.4 cm) long, that travel in small flocks and build bulky compartmented nests with separate chambers for two or more pairs. Of the 35 sparrow weavers the best known, and in fact one of the most widely distributed and familiar small birds in the world, is the English sparrow native to Europe,

[Guest]

Hey Robert,

Since you like Google I decided to give it a try. Who needs taxonomy when you have Google???

I typed in "weaver birds" and clicked on the "images" tab that Google handily provides. I found lots of weaver birds weaving nests in tree branches, not HOSPs cramming crap into cavities!

Ya see, even though most of the folks I know call a critter a Possum, I call 'em an Opossum, cause that's what they are.

Just because all of the birding references are not up to date (or even understand current taxonomy) doesn't mean that you cannot be well informed. Your reference places Weaver Finches in the FAMILY of Passeridae (under ORDER - Passeriformes Part III). Yet, when you select Weaver Finches (under FAMILY) it plainly states that these birds are a member of the FAMILY Ploceidae!!! You even quote that!!! Both you and your reference are being questioned. Which FAMILY does the House Sparrow belong to? Do House Sparrows belong to the FAMILY Passeridae or Ploceidae??? I anxiously await your response and question your reference.

Mark

[roblrich]

Geez, I'm not that smart like you Mark. I only scored a 28 on my Wonderlic test.

And I did not EVER say what class or whatever the HOSP belonged to. I said, "it didn't take long to look up why HOSP's are called 'Weavers' or are considered to be in the 'Weaver Group'." But question my reference all you want and send birdingquide.com an email for all I care. As you have implied many times on this forum, you are a very important man in Michigan , so ban them from being on the web in Michigan

And if you want to call possums, Opossums, more power to you. That makes you a Yankee and a green one at that. [1] Since English is a language that stresses some syllables and not others, weakly stressed syllables, especially those preceding strong stresses, are dropped at times. This process, called aphesis when it occurs at the beginning of a word, is more common in regional American dialects than in the more conservative Standard English, which tends to retain in pronunciation anything reflected in spelling. Although many American dialects feature aphesis, it is most famous in the dialects of the South, where it yields pronunciations such as count of for (on) account of, tater for potato, possum for opossum, and skeeter for mosquito.

And if I want to "stay informed", I'll watch the news or check out the Drudge Report at www.drudgereport.com .

And to criticize an 'Old World Weaver Finch' for his nest building skills is crazy. They are very efficient at that.

Come down to Kentucky, and I'll take you Ciconiiformes Scolopacidae Gallinago gallinago hunting.

But actually I could care less. But if it upsets you for me or anyone else to call English Sparrows, 'Old World Weaver Finches', I will certainly continue to do so.


[1] http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=possum

[Joe Zorn]

Waht dceefifrne deos it mkae how we slepl or say Osuopsm, as lnog as a poresn can raed or untrdnesad waht I am sniepakg or wiirtng auobt?

You say "CRAY-FISH", I say "CRAW-FISH"! Tehy' are btoh sllepld the smae, and tsate jsut as good! "PE-CAN" or "PE-KAHN" is stlil the smae tstay nut, rgiht?

And speaking of nuts.....some are in the same CLASS and ORDER as Cuckoo Birds. I think they also habitat the same nests (or cells).

Joe

[roblrich]

Amen Joe! I agree 100%

We should hang out sometime. But we ain't gonna watch no female basketball.

BTW, I say, "Craw-dad".

Trying to get an avatar I like. Think I found it.

[Joe Zorn]

cw550405,

My reply to your question would be that if the sparrow is in your crosshairs as he sits on your martin house, it's a pretty safe bet he's a cavity dweller, ie House Sparrow.

And you only need to dispatch those that show interest in your colony. There's not enough ammunition or minutes in a day to get them all.

[Joe Zorn]

Rob.
Oh yuck! A crawdad is a whole different animal. Fish bait mostly. No self respecting crawfish would be caught dead hanging around a crawdad hole!

[Kyle Gregoire]

Hellc 550405, To make things easier, the bookstores have a good selection of field manuals for identifying birds. I have used - An Audubon Handbook for Eastern birds and it has served me well. Running to the computor every time you sight a new bird is not practical. With the book in hand, and binoculars in the other, it makes it so much easier to identify properly. An answer to your question is, you only need to eliminate the english house SPARROW and european STARLING to have a better chance at attracting martins. Hope this can help you and have fun martining.

[roblrich]

Rob.
Oh yuck! A crawdad is a whole different animal. Fish bait mostly. No self respecting crawfish would be caught dead hanging around a crawdad hole!

Really? Thought they were the same. Told you guys I wasn't that smart! They do catch some tasty flathead catfish. In case King Mark is reading, "They do catch some tasty "Pylodictus olivaris".

[Joe Zorn]

Robert, Understandable, being from a landlocked and mountainous state.

A crawfish is a hardshelled crustacian that lives in shallow ponds, marsh, and ditches in the deep south. He's about 4"long, full grown. His tail is as tasty as that of jumbo shrimp.

A crawdad (Crawdadus Weaksister Pastymush), from my memory of growning up in central Arkansas is very weak, weak, white critter that diggs little holes in your yard, or near water-saturated areas. Other than being great freshwater bait, they are not good for much. As a kid, I used to catch them with a piece of bacon tied to a piece of string, and lowered into his hole. If your crawdads are more than that, let me know. Never seen any other kind.

A CRAWFISH is said to be the bravest animal in the world. He will stand square in middle of a railroad track, and raise both claws, daring the locomotive ..."Don't you come another inch!"

You havn't lived until you participate in a Cajun Crawfish (Potfullus Bon Delightus) Boil.

[roblrich]

Naw, Crawdads aren't white. They look like crawfish to me. As a kid, we found them under rocks in creeks and small streams.

I found this link, http://www.somaradio.ca/~minimalism/crawdad.html

They have photos of the same critters I use to catch as a kid. Anyways, I have always called them 'Crawdads'.

[RC Moser]

Go west young man and you will see no houses for The House sparrow (AKA English Sparrow, Weaver finch, old world finch). When they don't have nice unattended PM and bluebird houses to nest in the weave nests in trees. Trees you say in the high plains Desert? Yes you can find a few trees (some scrub oaks and their favorite Chinese Maple and some sort of scrub bush) and when you do you will find The english sparrow weaving nests. If I had a DR. degree I would name them something else . but, beings I don't have a piece of paper to name things I have to call it what other have labeled it.

[Sigundo]

That's an interesting article on crawdads, though I wouldn't myself really call hunting them "dangerous" (unless you lift the rock and there's a snake under it instead).. painful maybe if you dont grab them right.. but not dangerous.

And I agree, crawdad and crayfish are the same thing to me.. except there are no crayfish in Kentucky, you gotta go farther south for those "fancy" crawdads.

I AM, however, now wondering what those "very weak, white" things are that dig holes in the ground.. other than grubs, I can't seem to remember running into anything like that. Closest thing would be the 7 year locusts when they first come out soft, but thats more a grey if I remember right.

OH yeah, CW, back to the English Sparrowfinchweaver. Get a good look at the pictures available on the internet, compare them (preferably though the scope of a pellet gun, or sight if your eyes are better than mine). IF they match without a doubt, control your breathing and squeeze. I have a few types of sparrows here, and if I can't get a good look, I wait (course, so far NONE of the native sparrows have even landed on my martin house, much less tried to get inside it, so I feel pretty safe if its on the martin house, its one of them bad birds). Well, I have had a couple goldfinches land on it, but they are obviously not ES. The females are a bit tougher to tell at any good distance, but if you get the male, thats MOST of your problem for the near future anyway.