New Styrofoam Fiberglass/Epoxy Coated Martin House

[Guest]

Great information and ideas - thanks! I need to acquire my epoxy and fiberglass supplies this week so it will be helpful.

One thing I am thinking about for the foam board edges is a filled epoxy - maybe an automotive filler. I know they are available as a two part product and they could be applied as a thick film with a plastic spreader. This would allow me to better retain the beveled edges and add some structural strength at the same time. Then I could apply cloth to the sides (thanks for the tip about 4 oz) and coat the entire house. What do you think?

I am planning on using UV resistant white epoxy coating to cover the entire house. Then I plan to use regular black paint to finish the interiors. I read elsewhere in the forum that a dark cavity might appeal to the martins old nesting instincts.

I am also thinking about ordering some of Sandy Bunn's entrance plates. In particular the TW-24 series would allow me to easily switch back and forth between round and various SREH entrances. Much easier than trying to cut them myself!

I will keep you posted with my progress. Hopefully I will be able to attract some nesters this year. I've got about 60 days before I hook up the old Dawnsong and Daytime Chatter (drives the coyotes in our area nuts in the pre-dawn hours).

Jeff Nelson

[Bernie Nikolai]

Jeff, for a filler you just add one of two "powders" to the epoxy to thicken it. One is a "fairing" powder. This fills in and levels, and is easy to sand. Its called "fairing" as it makes the area "fair", or smooth or level. Then you apply the cloth/epoxy over it. The other powder also thickens the epoxy, but makes it very hard and very difficult to sand. It a strengthening powder, normally a dark copper red in colour. Don't use automotive gel, as I'd bet it would probably "eat" the styrofoam. See the West Epoxy home page for info or call their technical support folks on their toll free line.

Black on the inside to me is a bit too austere a colour, but this is just me. I'd prefer a medium brown to mimic an old woodpecker hole, but any dark colour should work well inside.

Lastly, I wouldn't recommend the flip plate you are planning to use, as it will "tempt" you to use the round entrance half. These styrofoam houses are ONLY for SREH. If you try to use round entrance holes as I did in 2004, you will get the same results I did. INSTANT starlings. Get rid of the pair, and within 24 hours another starling pair. Get rid of them, and within 24 hours yet another starling pair, etc. These houses are just too attractive to starlings. You MUST use SREH entrances, or you are doomed to failure with styrofoam housing. I don't mean to be preachy Jeff, its just I'm trying to save you some trouble. Use the WDC entrances with porches about 1/4" below the entrance, the martins zip through them like greased lightning, and they stop starlings even better than the crescents.

[jonkertb]

Listen to Bernie on the SREH.....his is the voice of wisdom gained by experience. All my new and existing housing is SREH and it works....

[Guest]

Bernie,

You convinced me - WDC entrances they will be. The good news is that starlings have not been a problem for me in the past - but then I have never had a colony of martins, either. Owls and hawks will be a consideration, as well as english sparrows. I trap most of the sparrows and some contract lead poisoning (a remarkably fast acting strain ). Still, starting with the WDC entrances sounds like the way to go.

Regarding the filler, I was thinking of an automotive product designed for use on fiberglass bodies. In another life I used to construct race cars and we used styrofoam glued to the body to rough shape flared wheel wells. Once it was 'roughed out', we built a smoother layer using a body filler. Then we 'glassed' over with a finish layer of resin and glass matt. I don't recall that we had problems dissolving the plastic foam with the filler, but the solvents sure will do a number on it!

I am trying to think of any plastic trim or channel material that I could use on the straight beveled edges. This could either be 'glassed' into the final epoxy coat or added last with adhesive as a weather strip. Then again, perhaps I am worrying too much about the bevel edge. The fact that I have designed the bevel as I have should keep rain out. To make the joint fit better and weather tight I could also stick adhesive backed flexible foam weather striping to one surface.

Keep the ideas coming - they are appreciated.

Jeff Nelson

[Guest]

As an update to this thread I am still working on my foam martin houses. The project has proven to be more labor intensive than I first planned (as usual).

Bernie was right about automotive brand filler and fiberglass resins eating foam. I checked the ingredients on Bondo brand and found it to contain styrene. The fillers I used long ago and referred to above must have been epoxy based. As pointed out earlier in this thread, you must use epoxy based products to prevent eating the foam board.

This makes an important point. I have been listing some of the details of my construction, but bear in mind this is a work in progress and prototype. Hopefully ideas posted here will help others if they decide to attempt a similar project but please don't take everything as the final word. You will want to carefully consider each step and supplement it with research of your own.

I am still enthusiastic about the potential for the finished housing, but as stated above I am finding that I am spending a lot more time than I had anticipated. Hopefully the results will justify time and money spent. I will update when finished.

Jeff Nelson

[Guss P O'Brien]

Could someone point out the older vinyl-sided thread (if there is one) detailing the building of the styrofoam house? It could answer a lot of questions like, did you purchase or make the WDC SREH? Did you coat the entrance holes with epoxy and did you have to make make the original hole bigger.

I'm going to try this someday. I risked divorce getting a second pole last year as my wife does not quite understand. This has me willing to risk it again for a 3rd pole. I think she will like this better since it can be made "cuter" than the 48 "big white boobs" I now have hanging high for everyone to see. You can make it look like a real house and not a big white boob space ship.

I'm think about trying it for blue bird houses and maybe even a swift chimney.

I wonder if DIY styrofoam molding is a possibility- can you by ingredient to make your own shapes and sizes of styrofoam?

Guss

[Guest]

Guss,

I ordered my SREH entrances from Sandy Bunn ( [email protected] ). He makes them from PVC sheet and custom made mine with the SREH at one end and a blank side at the other. This will allow me to install them using plastic channel to hold them in place. That way I can open and close the individual compartments by simply removing the entrance plate, rotating it 180 degrees and re-inserting it. I will provide pictures when it is done.

I am working with the pink insulating foam sheets available from any builder supply. I am using 1/2 inch and 1 inch material and assembling it with 2 1/2 inch construction screws. I am then coating the assemblies with 2 part expoxy that I ordered on-line. You can not use regular fiberglass resin here since it will dissolve the foam. One challenge I have found is that while the epoxy sets up quickly (about 20 minutes working time) it will continue to run for several hours and takes almost 48 hours to cure to a point that it is no longer tacky. This is probably exasperated by the fact I am working in a cold workshop in my barn where it (even with a heater) does not get much above 50 degrees this time of year. This dramatically slows down the process of coating various sides of the project.

Upon the suggestion from Bernie I am thinking about using a cotton cloth instead of the regular glass matt or cloth since the glass fabrics do not conform to sharp angled edges well. I am confident that the structual strength will be more than adequate with the cotton cloth.

Also remember that you will need to coat or paint the finished unit with UV resistant paint. The epoxy itself does not have good UV resistance.

I posted some pictures back farther in this thread of the houses I am building. I will provide more complete ones when I am finished. Bernie started this thread (see page 1) and I think he did use siding on his earlier model.

Jeff Nelson

[Guss P O'Brien]

I was wondering how the epoxy would hold up to washing with bleach and how the compartments would clean up at the end of the season.

I found some info that seems to show that epoxy and vinyl stand up well to bleach. So it seems that clean up will be fine. I know the vinyl gourds are pretty easy to get clean at the end of the season. Epoxy is at least as good which seems to hold up to a bleach wash once per year.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemi ... d_786.html
http://www.westernshelter.com/documents.php?ID=57

Cleaning Wood
1. Do not use bleach (sodium hypochlorite) on wood because it damages to the fibers of the wood. It will remove the softer spring-wood leaving a ripple surface on the board's surface. In some cases it has been know to promote premature rotting of the wood. from http://www.wonderpaint.com/kklear/wood_seal.shtml

I'm sure that the painted epoxy resists mildew better than vinyl. The vinyl gourds I have and several I have seen in pictures have an issue with mildew.

Guss

[Guest]

Guss.

I have some plastic gourds and have never seen a mildew problem - but then our climate is much different than yours. The closest thing to mildew I see on the gourds is frost. Boy, do the martins hate the frost!

Jeff Nelson

[Guss P O'Brien]

Working on the plans and design for the off season construction project...

Porches: You mentioned that a porch broke off on one compartment w/o impacting nesting. Can the birds grip the thick epoxy coated foam? I was considering cutting SREH into the 1" foam instead of glueing in PVC inserts. In your opinions, would they be able to grip the thick coated foam and enter w/o a porch as they do with natural and artificial gourds w/o porches? I think the hardness and slickness of the epoxy along with the thickness of the foam could make them MREH instead of SREH.

Entrances: Does thickness affect the other dimensions of the SREH? I've seen the same dimension SREH used on up to 3/4" thick wood and 1/16" thick PVC and metal. Is there any info on how or if to adjust for thickness- in this case 1" thick coated foam?

The foam is very workable, making me think cutting SREH into the walls will be feasible using a jig and a mini-router (Dremel) type fitting- adjusted for coating of course. Think of how lathers cut receptacles openings in drywall or carpenters cut sink openings in counter tops with larger routers.

Thanks for the help.

[Bernie Nikolai]

I think the hardness and slickness of the epoxy along with the thickness of the foam could make them MREH instead of SREH.

Entrances: Does thickness affect the other dimensions of the SREH? I've seen the same dimension SREH used on up to 3/4" thick wood and 1/16" thick PVC and metal. Is there any info on how or if to adjust for thickness- in this case 1" thick coated foam?

The foam is very workable, making me think cutting SREH into the walls will be feasible using a jig and a mini-router (Dremel) type fitting- adjusted for coating of course.

Guss, let me add some thoughts on your comments. In terms of the slickness of the epoxy, if there is only one coat of epoxy and fiberglass cloth, the surface is not at all slippery, but rather, almost like those plastic sandpaper blocks used for sanding. If you add a few coats of epoxy to get a hard, slick, plastic like coating, I just sprinkled beach sand on the last coat while wet. When dry, I brushed off any sand that didn't stick, and bingo, its like sandpaper with the "stuck on sand" in the epoxy. I did this just inside the entrances for traction on the floor.

This works GREAT for plastic gourds as well. After degreasing the inside of the plastic gourd, just paint on a coat of epoxy, sprinkle on sand, brush away the loose sand after the epoxy dries, and spray with a dark Krylon Fusion paint. You now have a plastic gourd with a rough, sandpaper like interior that is also very dark inside. Plus this is very easy and quick to do.

With regard to cutting out a SREH entrance directly into the styrofoam, well, this can be done. But starlings may well peck the entrance hole bigger to gain entry. If you coat the inside of the entrance with fiberglass cloth and epoxy, this would protect the entrance, but the measurements on a SREH are pretty exact. With all the fussing and fiddling you would have to do, I'm sure it would be much easier and simpler to just cut a rectangular hole into the styrofoam, and attach a plastic SREH plate you either make or buy. If you get the 1 3/16" bit from the PMCA store online, you can easily make all you want by drilling into vinyl house siding or some other durable plastic.

[Guest]

Guss,

Bernie is exactly right about the issue of maintaining dimensions if you cut the SREH's directly in the foam. The epoxy coating is just too thick to allow you to retain the dimensions you need.

Frankly, I have found the epoxy challenging to work with on several levels. First, it will give you about 20 minutes of working time from the time you mix it, yet it remains viscous enough that it will run for hours. This makes it challenging to apply to anything but perfectly level surfaces, thus requiring many separate coating sessions to cover all of the different surfaces of your housing (a good reason to keep the basic design simple - I may have gotten a little too fancy with mine). Next, the epoxy remains sticky to touch for 36 to 48 hours, making it a long drawn out process between coatings. This is probably exasperated by the fact that my barn workshop is cold this time of year since I only like to run the gas heater on weekends when I can spend most of the day in there - gas prices are too high to leave it run through the day so that it is warm on weeknights.

I have also found that many of the surfaces seem very strong with only the epoxy coating and without the added cloth matt, so that I am only selecting the load bearing surfaces to apply matt to. By all means use very light matt (4 oz or less) or follow Bernie's lead by using cotton fabric (old tee shirts). The heavier matt that is most commonly sold is way too heavy to follow the corners and edges of your house.

My project has become much more time-consuming than I had originally planned for (as usual). I sure hope that the foam houses are attractive to the martins and that I finally succeed in colonizing - something that is difficult to do in Michigan. If all these efforts do not result in establishing a colony of martins I have decided that I am going to switch housing strategies and start trying to attract ivory billed woodpeckers!

Good luck with your project and listen to Bernie - he has good advice.

Jeff Nelson

[Bernie Nikolai]

Next, the epoxy remains sticky to touch for 36 to 48 hours, making it a long drawn out process between coatings. This is probably exasperated by the fact that my barn workshop is cold this time of year

Jeff Nelson

Jeff, I really look forward to the finished photos of your styrofoam/epoxy/cloth house. I think I can save you a lot of aggravation in the future. In a nutshell, the challenges you are having with the epoxy running and taking 36 to 48 hours to dry are totally temperature driven.

If you apply the epoxy at room temperature, it is dry to the touch overnight, in only about 8 hours. However, at 50F or 10C, epoxy takes about 500% more time to cure. You wouldn't think a slightly cooler temperature would make that much of a difference, but the extra curing time is HUGE. This may not be an option to you due to the extra cost of heating your workshop, but it would work better to heat your shop to 70F for 12 hours, then let it drop to about the freezing temperature, vrs. keeping it at 50F for a longer period of time.

Best of luck in getting martins in your house this year! Keep us all posted. In less than 2 months the ASYs will be back, even here in Alberta.

[Guest]

Bernie,

Thanks for the information. I suspected that the shop temperature has been a big contributing factor. Even at higher ambient temperatures I wonder if the epoxy will still be a challenge due to the running issue. I am surprised how quickly it will set beyond workability and yet it runs.

Interestingly, I have read about and noticed that the thinner the coat you apply, the slower it sets. Obviously the air (not referring to temperature) has nothing to due with the curing - it is strictly an endothermic reaction where the thicker the coat the more it builds internal heat. I have been frustrated at the amount of running and dripping (for esthetic reasons). Have you worked with heat lamps at all and did they help?

This has been a learning experience and I would do things different the next time. I have reached the point that I am most interested in getting it done in time for the martins arrival for this year.

I will be sure that I make pictures available when the project is complete. I will have to put them on our company website and give you a link since this site would not let me post more update pics last week. I got a message that my 1 mb limit was used up (or something to that effect).

Hoping this is the year!

Thanks!

Jeff Nelson

[Bernie Nikolai]

Interestingly, I have read about and noticed that the thinner the coat you apply, the slower it sets. Obviously the air (not referring to temperature) has nothing to due with the curing - it is strictly an endothermic reaction where the thicker the coat the more it builds internal heat. I have been frustrated at the amount of running and dripping (for esthetic reasons). Have you worked with heat lamps at all and did they help?

I got a message that my 1 mb limit was used up (or something to that effect).

Jeff Nelson

Jeff, if you apply epoxy at 85F on a warm day, it will set so quickly you virtually won't be able to work with it. There are powdered additives that either slow down or speed up the curing. I know if you add the white thickening powder, basically microscopic glass beads, the epoxy is thicker and sets much more quickly. If you filled a coffee cup with liquid epoxy, it would get too hot too hold and set very quickly. It is strange that the thicker the coat, the quicker it sets. But even the thin layers set much more quickly the warmer the temperature. I can get a thin layer to set in only about 4 hours by placing it in my furnace room, which might be about 75 or 80F in the winter. But if I put it in my garage at 50F, it would still be tacky two days later.

And to add more photos, you have to go into your profile and "delete" some of the existing ones. Then you have more space and can add new ones. We all only get enough space for a few photos, so if we want to post more, we must delete some of the older ones. Good luck on everything!

[Guest]

Bernie,

Thanks for the info. I do have fairing compound that I purchased with the epoxy. I purchased it to mix and use as a filler, though I was beginning to think it would not work well if it ran - I wanted to get a putty consistency for filling and smoothing. After reading your information it sounds like adding the fairing compound may make it less likely to run where I want to fill. I will need to experiment with it.

Since the project is at a very 'ugly' stage at this point I will reserve loading new pictures until the houses are complete - hopefully within two weeks.

Thanks for the tip on deleting existing pics.

Jeff Nelson

[suem]

I am soooo excited to see all this info about foam Martin houses. I found instructions last year, I believe from searching for Martin house plans. I am using 3/4" plain white foamboard. Because I couldn't find big sheets, I got 14" X 48" sheets, 6 in ea pack. I cut to 23" length 4 pieces for each floor and the base, and 27" ones for the roof. Used Lexel glue to glue 2 pieces side to side. Glued the pair to another pair, criss-crossing the seams, to make 1 1/2" thick floors and roof. Need to square them up when dried and glue the dividers, 3/4" single thickness. Ordered the SREH, porches and access ports from S&K (99 cents ea). Putting up my 8 gourds today and hope to have the house up this weekend. I like the idea of epoxy siding but, being a seamstress, I just might use some pretty light colored cotton fabric for the outside! Won't the PMs flock to my house!!! I wonder if the bluebirds would like a foam house too?!( Got foam left over). I'll keep everyone posted on what happens and take some photos.

[Guss P O'Brien]

I'd like to build a couple of test "chalets" for this season to see how I want to do the entrances and porches in the big project next year.

I can't find a photo or sketch of BN foam chalet, but I understand it is like a boxy gourd. If you could post or send a photo or sketch it would help be with my project.

Thanks.

[Guest]

Guss,

I think I understand your request and I don't have any information about 'chalet' style housing. Hopefully someone else here on the forum will have that for you.

I would encourage you to consider constructing apartment style housing. This type of construction will allow you to take maximum advantage of the light weigh to strength ratio and insulating properties of the foam as well as maximizing the amount of housing per amount of foam board used. On a more selfish level, this would also result in another creative person engaged in designing and building apartment style housing. I have enjoyed the input from Bernie and look forward to comparing the designs of others to what I have devised.

I am still working away on my foam apartment housing. When it is complete I will compile a complete series of pictures and measurements to share.

Regardless of your design styles, I will look forward to reading about and seeing your results.

Jeff Nelson

[~Patrick~]

I've been following this thread since the first post and I'm so impressed that I definitely plan to experiment with the foam and hope to have a house ready for use next year. The attractive qualities to me are that foam is so lightweight and that its insulating qualities might help to fend off some the the excessive Texas heat we have here in the summer. My biggest concern is how this type of housing will hold up under our summer hailstorms. I would love to see postings of others that are trying out foam housing. Keep them coming.

Patrick
Fort Worth, Texas