New Styrofoam Fiberglass/Epoxy Coated Martin House

[Bernie Nikolai]

Bernie
Just wondering if the birds scratch or pick at this material? I know its pretty soft. Is it OK for the birds to ingest this material? Thanks

Actually Rickluk, with the fiberglass/epoxy coating, its the complete opposite. Its not soft at all, instead its a very hard, plastic like, clear coating that no bird can scratch or peck through from the inside or outside. Its similar to the bottom of a fiberglass boat. Really hard stuff. I suppose an highly irritated woodpecker with a really bad attitude COULD peck through, but the same could happen if the house was make of 3" of solid oak. Since the birds simply can't peck through or claw through the styrofoam if there is the cloth/epoxy coating on it inside and outside of the house, there is no way they could ingest the styrofoam. Also my tests in the last two years showed the only damage to the interior of untreated styrofoam was a little bit of scratching (say 1/8") immediately under the nest. The fiberglass cloth/epoxy coating will completely eliminate this.

Docgipe, if you look closely at the bottom of the photo above showing the "2005 model with the vinyl house siding", you will see a small section of rope hanging down from the eyebolt coming out of the bottom of the house. The rope is attached here to the bottom of the house, comes up the inside of the house along the post, over the pulley, and down the other side, also inside the house along the pole. By pulling down on the rope from the ground, the house is raised until it is snug to the top plate above the post. By letting out slack, the entire house comes down to ground level (actually the top level of the 4"x6" base post)for nest checks. You can use a winch if you want, but the house is so light I just tie the end well once the house is snug at the top, and raise and lower the house by hand. To do a nest check I just untie the knot, and lower the house. Then you just pull the rope until the house is snug at the top, tie a good knot, and leave it to the martins.

[Guest]

I must be dumber 'en a hoe handle. I think I understand the routed out track on both sides of the post. This creates an "I" beam of sorts and keeps the box tracking. I can not visualize relatively equal up pressure on the bottom. The up pressure from one screw eye with nothing to be anchored in but foam board is what is tripping me up. That would seem to be a pops out deal real quick. That would seem to pull the box unevenly causing a pressure on box at an angle trying to rise up a plumb post.

I'll sleep, on this befuddlement, in my mind. It may clear over night.

[Bernie Nikolai]

Docgipe, there is no "routed out track" on the post. The rope simply goes along the side of the post, in exactly the same way it does if you crank up a T-14 or Northstar, except no winch and and no cable as I only use a good uv resistant rope. You might think the house would "go up crooked and get stuck" but it doesn't. It works great.

The eye bolt is anchored this way: Cut out a plug perhaps 2" square and through the entire floor, then apply the fiberglass cloth and epoxy, one coat, over this hole on the bottom. When dry, drill a hole through the bottom thin layer of epoxy/cloth and thread in the eye screw into the bottom of this big 2" square hole in the floor. Then simply fill the entire diameter of this 2" square hole with epoxy, and cover with the inside layer of fiberglass cloth (the layer inside the house). What you get is an eye bolt fused into a 2" plug of what looks like clear hard plastic. It won't pull out. Period. If you really cranked on it hard with vice grips and with all your strength, the entire floor of the house might crack and break, but the eye bolt is still firmly embedded into the plug of epoxy.

I can understand your and other folks concerns. It just doesn't seem strong enough. All I can say is you have to try it first. This cloth epoxy coating is AMAZING stuff. After all, its been on the bottom of perhaps tens of of thousands of boats/canoes/kayaks for decades, boats that get dragged up on sandy beaches and bump off rocks and logs when in the water. And they are fine. So for a relatively simple application like a birdhouse, it will work great. Again, the only way is for folks to try one and see. Its the kind of learning that only comes from doing. Good luck if you decide to build one, and feel free to send me a private email if you would like more info, but feel it won't be of interest to others on this list.

[~Patrick~]

Well, I am totally fascinated by this and plan to try to build one, but it won't be ready for use this year. It has all the qualities I'm looking for, extremely light weight, well insulated, can be tailor made for optimal nest box size, entrance and porch placement, paintable, etc. We do have a lot of hail storms here in north Texas so that will be my biggest concern. I'm anxious to give it a try. Please keep us all informed of your updates and for those of you who try it this year, let us know what works.

Patrick

[Guest]

As a newbee I can't get it up, for this year. I have all the materials except the fresh shelf life epoxy. I will tinker at it and think, in terms, of very late this season or, in time, to open next year. Forgive me. It's my nature to be picky and then, to jazz things up a bit. I really like this whole concept. Thank you so much, for sharing it.

[Guest]

Hey guys,

I am interested in the foam construction and am seriously considering starting a NorthStar style house of foam this weekend. I made some nesting boxes of plastic foam board a number of years ago. I used construction adhesive to attach cedar shingling to the outside surface. I used the foam for light weight so that I could leave the back open and attach them to windows around the house so that we could observe. Tit mice and wrens both used the boxes and sucessfully fledged from them.

Regarding sliding martin houses up and down 4 x 4 wood posts I have found that using the PVC fence sleeving designed to cover corner posts on decks and fences works great. Cut the sleeve length the same as your house height and assemble your house around it. It will add structural strength to the foam house and makes sliding up and down the pole as friction-free as anything you can imagine. Your house will slide up and down the pole with ease.

The same square PVC sleeving works great for ground plugs for your 4 x 4 wood poles. I re-enforced the PVC sleeving with an outside wooden box frame and then set it into a large hole. Support the pole in the socket in a plumb position with temp wooden supports and then fill the large hole with cement. Also, line the hole bottom with plastic to keep the cement from entering into or under the socket. After the cement has hardened remove the pole, pull the plastic bag out to allow water drainage, and replace the pole. Use wood shims to snug the pole in the socket and you are set. The pole will be very sturdy and can be easily removed for service or replacement.

Jeff Nelson

[Adam Romain]

Great suggestion Jeff for the 4X4 ground sleeve. I think this is the first time I've heard of one and that would be great for replacing the post as it ages and starts to weaken and warp. Hope you have a great season!!!

[Fred Kaluza~MI]

Bernie, what about fumes and off-gassing from the resin? I built a boat as a teenager and although the epoxy sets up quickly with enough hardener, I can remember the material continued to stink up the garage LONG after it was hard. Perhaps with enough ventilation it's not that bad but excessive ventilation at least partially defeats the insulating capacity of the structure right? If the odor of Cedar sap is not supposed to be good for little Martins, I can't imagine that fiberglass resin is any better. Maybe it's possible to artificially "age" the structure and help ensure that 99% of the smell is gone by keeping it hot for a week or something?

[Bernie Nikolai]

Bernie, what about fumes and off-gassing from the resin? I built a boat as a teenager and although the epoxy sets up quickly with enough hardener, I can remember the material continued to stink up the garage LONG after it was hard.

Fred, it must have been a different kind of epoxy, or else some additives in the epoxy when you were a kid. Or else they have changed the formula since then. There are no fumes. There is no off-gassing. There is no smell of any kind that I could detect. As a matter of fact, since I don't have a "workshop" per se, I epoxied the house in the main bathroom (don't tell my wife, she was away at the time and won't understand it was for "science" ) So I don't see this as being a problem at all.

[Fred Kaluza~MI]

Wow then that's great! The stuff I used to use gave everyone headaches and bloody noses and stuff! Half the time after an hour or so you'd get so light-headed you'd just want to tip right over and I almost set the garage on fire one time when I passed out! No, actually it was not that bad. It just stank! Also, I do recall a distinct tendency to "fudge" the proportion of hardener to resin "mostly experimenting" and that could have lead to some less-than-optimal curing. I do recall how incredibly rigid it all becomes. Also, without disk-grinders I remember the finished product was pretty much beyond modification. As far as using a block-sander to smooth it out, forget it! My project became kind of a lumpy-bottomed sailboat which my grandmother sold to her mail-man while I was in the Navy. It also weighed way too much! I must have had about 50 puonds of fiberglass on it and on paper-boy wages, it was not cheap either! I can back the claims of almost bullet-proof strength! Good luck. They look very professional! Fred

[Guest]

Fred,

The experience I had many years ago with fiberglass was also smelly and nasty. It does make sense that the EPA and other regulatory agencies have driven refinements and improvements for health and enviromental reasons so the products available today may not be anything like we used to work with.

I am certainly interested in exploring this approach.

Jeff Nelson

[Guest]

Be aware that when epoxy and polyester was making it appearance, on boats and in autobody repair shops lots, of people and distributor's salesmen, did not know the difference.

Polyester is the wicked fast curing material that has horrible gases associated with its curing. Epoxy is not gas free but it is much less dangerous. Both have dangerous dust when being sanded. The warnings are, on the cans. Please use all so called liquid glass products carefully.

I long ago gave up trying to teach the real technical differences, of the various products. To be safe our students were instructed, to use good quality breathing equipment, for gas and dust. Most, of them, use the advise. The ones who did not ended up with serious respiration problems. Some get goofy, from brain damage. I'm seventy years young and still breathing while I have witnessed the burial, of a number, of my buddys, who thought it manly, to work, without breathing protection.

[Guest]

That's very good information and even better advice!

Jeff

[Guest]

Well, I started my foam martin house project this weekend. I am attaching some photos of the work so far.

I am designing this house to take advantage of the light weight and will be very large (the nesting trays will be 7.75" wide x 11" deep and 7" high). Is there such a thing as too large for the nesting area? I know they should be deep to help protect against predators.

The house is designed as separate floors so that I can add additional units if I want. The nesting trays slide in and out so that I can service them easily. The house will slide up and down a 4 x 4 wood pole with pulleys. I have beveled the outside walls at top and bottom so that when joined water will not enter the nesting area.

Notice that I did not use adhesive to join the foam panels together. I found that the panels are not perfectly straight so that joining them with glue becomes a challenge. Instead I am using 2" construction screws which allow me to pre-align the panels before fastening them. I am not worried about the strength of the joints since I will pick up structural strength when the finished house is coated with fiberglass.

This is a work in progress so I will update it as I go along. I really hope that the Michigan martins take a liking to this type of construction - they sure don't seem impressed with my current aluminum houses.

Jeff Nelson

[jonkertb]

couple of questions.....
cause my next one will be foam.....
how have/will you provide for ventilation??
how will the nest tray be secured and is there more to the nest tray front etc?
tom

[Guest]

Tom,

Yes, I am leaving some room between the inner walls and the bottom of the next level for ventilation. There will also be holes near the inner plastic sleeve on all sides to let air circulation and to permit passage of the pulley rope.

I am thinking about putting large steel washer under the fiberglass coat at the back of each compartment and a strong magnet at the back of each nesting tray. With a strong magnet I think the nest trays will be secured well but easy to remove for service. I am still playing with some of the dimensions as the project progresses. I can post them as they become available.

The nest trays are not complete in these photos. I am planning on using 1/2" foam board for the nest tray bottom, rear, and entrance. I plan to use corrugated plastic board for the sides. I am going to make several extra nesting trays so that they will be ready for emergencies.

Where I live in Southwest Michigan we have attracted scouts to our aluminum housing but never had them start a colony. Those that have colonies in our area (not many) seem to mostly use wood housing so I hope this new housing will appeal to them this spring.

Jeff Nelson

[Bernie Nikolai]

Jeff, a work of art so far! Very nice job. A couple of comments and a question for you. Firstly I also used screws when I made most of my styrofoam houses. I used ppca first, then added the screws just to hold things in while the ppca set. Then I left the screws in.

A ceiling of 7" may be too high for the martins. Folks are having great results with 6" pvc pipe, adding a cedar floor, without cutting the pipe and inserting a floor. So this meant the ceiling was only 4 1/2" to 5", and the martins loved it. However, you are using nest trays of 1/2" foam, which will reduce the height to only 6 1/2" inside. I've had martins build a tall nest to almost 2" from the roof (a 4" tall nest), so I suspect they may prefer a lower ceiling.

When you apply the fiberglass cloth, it doesn't like to go around sharp corners. The technical guy at the epoxy company told me the cloth should not be bent around any corner more narrow than the roundness of your little finger. So I hope you were not planning to go around the sharp corners on the bottom of the house.

My question is how did you cut the nice 45 degree angles on your foam? I assume you used a table saw? Great looking job.

[Guest]

Bernie,

Thanks for the input! I am developing the dimensions as I go and I can easily make the nesting tray bottoms of 1" material to reduce the inside height to 6". I may also put 1/2" spacers on the bottom of the trays to further raise them above any possible water or I could also double the floor distance. I had not thought height would be an issue since I have seen other posts discussing vertical nests - though these refer to a drop down into the nest cavity. The good news is that the replaceable nest trays will allow me to experiment with entrances and dimensions.

Good point about the corners. Is your reference to the woven glass matt or the kind-of spun looser style matt? I was planning on using the looser spun cloth and thought I would mix a fast setting first coat to 'glue' it in place before using a regular penetrating coat. I do remember when working with the glass matt on a car project (eons ago) that the matt was not happy about sharp corners and wanted to lift away. Thanks for reminding me - I will need to give this more thought.

Yes, I used a table saw to make the bevels - 30 degree angles. The large pieces I cut (straight cuts) with a straight edge and razor knife since they were too large to fit on the saw. But the saw was great for the bevels. I hooked up a shop vac to the saw since the foam creates a lot of fine dust.

I wonder if the gelcoat alone will be adequate at the edges (particularly the bevels) since the matt will probably not maintain a nice mating surface. I don't need perfect fit (because of the beveled edge) but I do want it to mate up reasonably well.

Stay tuned.....

Thanks again for the suggestions!

Jeff Nelson

[Bernie Nikolai]

Jeff, about the inside height of the compartments, this is just my feeling, not scientific data. Clearly the ceilings in a natural gourd are much more than 6", and the martins love natural gourds. But perhaps if the wooden houses/styrofoam houses/horizontal gourds replicate a "snapped off, hollow, horizontal branch" that martins at one time nested in, they may prefer lower ceilings than what we may think. And the martins nesting in the bridges in Sacramento, California have 6 ft. ceilings in their compartments and they are doing well...

The corners I referred to were with the woven fiberglass cloth, 6 ounce size. You could try the lighter 4 ounce size as well. I haven't tried the other material you referred to. You could just end the cloth at the bottom of the levels, and start another one on the inside. Its just that you won't be able to bend the cloth easily around such a sharp corner, as it will want to "lift away". And any area you can't or don't want to put cloth/epoxy on, just put 2 or 3 layers of epoxy, painted right over the styrofoam. This will give a very hard surface, just not as strong with regard to major impact resistance. But for edges, etc. the plain epoxy is much easier than trying to use 1" strips of cloth. Looks great, and please update us with photos as the house finishes.

[Guest]

I have built stripper canoes using 4oz. cloth inside and outside of 3/16" edge grain planking edge glued using West System epoxy. Corner or edge tack ups can be made with T-Shirt strips and 5 minute epoxy. When finishing sand them down and run yard goods glass over the tacks.

On my natural gourds I am using a patch over the hanging hole to offer wear and strength support using T-Shirt material and 5 minute epoxy from any hardware store adhesive displays. They do have one minute epoxy...but my old fingers need a little more time to get two patches on from one mixed small batch of epoxy. These small tacks or spots sand down and paint over nearly invisible unless you are shown where they are.

I am new at this too but every colony site I have visited seems to have a Big Bertha Natural Gourd that is shown, to me, with pride. Usually that Big Bertha Natural Gourd is a favorite that gets large families raised, in them. Diameter, of the Big Bertha show pieces goes up as much as fifteen or more inches tall with a circumference, of thirty five or more inches. That is a huge gourd. The martins seem to like it, in each story I have heard. From this I would deduct that within reason the larger cavity enhances comfort and number of eggs safely away from the gourd entrance.

I shall try to grow my pride and joy...Big Bertha Natural this summer. By private E I could coach anyone how to get a monster gourd from any good seed.