I've just finished drilling my natural gourds with entrance and access holes. I went to treat them with copper sulfate to help preserve them and realized that once I soak them there's really no appropriate place to dispose of the copper sulfate/water mixture on my property. We live in a rural area and have a septic system. I know you can't dump it in your yard or anywhere with plants for it will kill them.
Is there another product out there that does the same thing? My husband thought there had to be some kind of spray you could use inside the gourd that would kill all potential gourd fungi and prevent it from rotting.
Any suggestions?
As always, THANK YOU!
HELP! Is there an alternative to Copper Sulfate for gourds?
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
A good way to "store" it is to leave the container open, and let the water evaporate, then in a year or two, you can reuse it if you wish..just add some water again..
I quit using it recently, I am not sure that it does any good, and I am not sure about the copper sulfate affecting the babies...just some thoughts..
I have used it before, but I did not run enough tests or keep records to see if it really helps...Since I raise my own gourds, I really don't want to mess with the disposal of it, I would rather use a new gourd.
I quit using it recently, I am not sure that it does any good, and I am not sure about the copper sulfate affecting the babies...just some thoughts..
I have used it before, but I did not run enough tests or keep records to see if it really helps...Since I raise my own gourds, I really don't want to mess with the disposal of it, I would rather use a new gourd.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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TreeGreenwood
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:27 pm
- Location: Virginia/Catlett
Lislou, you started or at least reactivated an interesting discussion.
I've used copper sulfate because it's recommended by many who've used natural gourds for years. Basically, it is supposed to kill the mold, fungus and bacteria that eventually rot out natural gourds. It actually doesn't preserve them, just gets you started with a gourd cleaned of rot-causing microorganisms. Problem is, the world is full of rot-causing organisms that can be blown in or carried in by Martins.
In the past, preservatives contained lots of toxins including stuff like Chromated Copper Arsenate (CCA) that has been proven to cause cancer in humans and is known to be harmful to wildlife. How many of us cut those greenish landscape timbers and pressure-treated lumber for decks in the past? Today's pressure-treated lumber is less toxic than in the past but still not suitable for use indoors or for bird housing.
But there's a newer family of products called Total Wood Preservatives (TWP). They're formulated to be used on and in human housing and are supposed to be no more toxic than house paint. Most log homes are treated with a TWP like WOODguard?. Folks who prefer wood shake roofs or siding use similar products to prolong the life of their wood. TWPs are supposed to provide protection from molds, mildew, insects and rot. Reading the labels, WOODguard appears to be less toxic than copper sulfate once the distilates evaporate. All of it is absorbed so there's no chips or external residue that might be ingested by the birds.
There have been discussions in this forum before about shaking some Thompson's Water Seal or similar products around inside natural gourds to preserve them. A few swear by that method while others fear anything they perceive as not natural.
I won't try a TWP this year. I would want the gourds to thoroughly cure to be sure that those petroleum distillates are all be evaporated before a Martin enters. But I may try using something like WOODguard in half my gourds when I get them ready next winter to compare how they last with gourds prepared with copper sulfate and how well they're accepted by the Martins. I'll also watch for any possible adverse effects, though I don't expect any or I wouldn't try it.
Thanks for an interesting topic,
Tree
I've used copper sulfate because it's recommended by many who've used natural gourds for years. Basically, it is supposed to kill the mold, fungus and bacteria that eventually rot out natural gourds. It actually doesn't preserve them, just gets you started with a gourd cleaned of rot-causing microorganisms. Problem is, the world is full of rot-causing organisms that can be blown in or carried in by Martins.
In the past, preservatives contained lots of toxins including stuff like Chromated Copper Arsenate (CCA) that has been proven to cause cancer in humans and is known to be harmful to wildlife. How many of us cut those greenish landscape timbers and pressure-treated lumber for decks in the past? Today's pressure-treated lumber is less toxic than in the past but still not suitable for use indoors or for bird housing.
But there's a newer family of products called Total Wood Preservatives (TWP). They're formulated to be used on and in human housing and are supposed to be no more toxic than house paint. Most log homes are treated with a TWP like WOODguard?. Folks who prefer wood shake roofs or siding use similar products to prolong the life of their wood. TWPs are supposed to provide protection from molds, mildew, insects and rot. Reading the labels, WOODguard appears to be less toxic than copper sulfate once the distilates evaporate. All of it is absorbed so there's no chips or external residue that might be ingested by the birds.
There have been discussions in this forum before about shaking some Thompson's Water Seal or similar products around inside natural gourds to preserve them. A few swear by that method while others fear anything they perceive as not natural.
I won't try a TWP this year. I would want the gourds to thoroughly cure to be sure that those petroleum distillates are all be evaporated before a Martin enters. But I may try using something like WOODguard in half my gourds when I get them ready next winter to compare how they last with gourds prepared with copper sulfate and how well they're accepted by the Martins. I'll also watch for any possible adverse effects, though I don't expect any or I wouldn't try it.
Thanks for an interesting topic,
Tree
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roblrich
Roebic K-77 (which is 99% copper sulfate) is designed for killing roots interfering with septic tanks. So it would seem to be safe pouring down your toilet (toilet only), just flush a few times afterwards. I phoned the guy that empties my septic tank and he said he was sure of this.
So I flushed a few gallons down last week and my house or septic tank hasn't blew up yet. Hopefully it will clear out those roots messing with my lateral lines.
So I flushed a few gallons down last week and my house or septic tank hasn't blew up yet. Hopefully it will clear out those roots messing with my lateral lines.
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
I think often we use gourds that are too soft and too thin, and then the bottom rots out, so we want a cure for that problem. We then try to add copper sulfate...The cure to me seems to be that we should start with a thick, dense gourd to begin with and then we probably would not need the copper sulfate.
I used a lot of nitrogen one year while growing the gourds, and they grew very fast, had large gourds, and everything looked fine. Now I am finding that those gourds are not so good, the bottom is falling out of some of them...others have also noticed that same thing when using too much nitrogen.
I am currently having the soil tested to see what the soil needs, and as Victor Stoll noted on this forum, they prefer to have a high potash content in the fertilizer as this helps the density of the gourds. I also heard many times that gourds prefer poor soil, so that to me probably means that the soil is low in nitrogen...
Since I grow my own gourds, I think we finally have found the answer, and it may not be copper sulfate...I am not opposed to still using it, I am just wondering if it is necessary
I used a lot of nitrogen one year while growing the gourds, and they grew very fast, had large gourds, and everything looked fine. Now I am finding that those gourds are not so good, the bottom is falling out of some of them...others have also noticed that same thing when using too much nitrogen.
I am currently having the soil tested to see what the soil needs, and as Victor Stoll noted on this forum, they prefer to have a high potash content in the fertilizer as this helps the density of the gourds. I also heard many times that gourds prefer poor soil, so that to me probably means that the soil is low in nitrogen...
Since I grow my own gourds, I think we finally have found the answer, and it may not be copper sulfate...I am not opposed to still using it, I am just wondering if it is necessary
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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roblrich
Emil and everyone else for that matter... What is the thinnest gourd you guys have used if you could put a estimate/guesstimate on the thickness of it, and how many seasons did it last?
So far I have received 27 gourds. I have discarded 7 from PM use for various reasons, so I am down to 20. Three or four of these are thin gourds, a couple maybe as thin as an 3/16ths of an inch, but they seem hard. Will they last a season until I can grow my own gourds?
I do have a dozen more on the way I ordered from Gourd Gracious this weekend. They promised me some nice ones.
So far I have received 27 gourds. I have discarded 7 from PM use for various reasons, so I am down to 20. Three or four of these are thin gourds, a couple maybe as thin as an 3/16ths of an inch, but they seem hard. Will they last a season until I can grow my own gourds?
I do have a dozen more on the way I ordered from Gourd Gracious this weekend. They promised me some nice ones.
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
I have some that are about 10 years old that are very dense and very thin, some of the first that I ever grew (I suppose they were better because there was more potash in the soil when I first started). They are probably about 3/16in thick. I however would really not recommend something less than 1/4in, but it really is more about the density than about the thickness.
I have since started using my pocket knife test (PK Test...smile), I tap the gourd with the handle end of a pocket knife, and listen for the ring. If its a dull sound, that gourd is not very dense, but if it is a high pitched sound, then that gourd is a better quality gourd...this of course is not very scientific, but it seems to work for me. The other thing that works is the weight of the gourd, as the more dense the gourd is, the more it weighs...I lift up one gourd and then compare it to another, the heavier gourd is always my choice. The weight is a very good way to compare gourds of equal size. I give the lightweight soft gourds away to the church school for craft projects.
Also, you can do a search for gourds on Google, and often you can find a local grower that lives near your home. If you go there, then you can save the shipping charges, plus you can pick out the most dense gourds. Some states even have gourd fairs, so that was worth looking at, especially if you live in a Southern state..
I have since started using my pocket knife test (PK Test...smile), I tap the gourd with the handle end of a pocket knife, and listen for the ring. If its a dull sound, that gourd is not very dense, but if it is a high pitched sound, then that gourd is a better quality gourd...this of course is not very scientific, but it seems to work for me. The other thing that works is the weight of the gourd, as the more dense the gourd is, the more it weighs...I lift up one gourd and then compare it to another, the heavier gourd is always my choice. The weight is a very good way to compare gourds of equal size. I give the lightweight soft gourds away to the church school for craft projects.
Also, you can do a search for gourds on Google, and often you can find a local grower that lives near your home. If you go there, then you can save the shipping charges, plus you can pick out the most dense gourds. Some states even have gourd fairs, so that was worth looking at, especially if you live in a Southern state..
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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Guest
I would be reluctant to use Thompson Water Seal or any "finish" that would coat the inside of a natural gourd. We go to all the trouble to use natural gourds because martins seem to prefer them and love the interior which provides great traction etc. Once it is coated and hard......wouldn't you be as well off with a plastic gourd? Seems like it would be no better and a plastic gourd will last much longer.