Iam purchasing a new rack to replace the one I have now, the one I
have now is homemade and does not let up and down well. My question is will it matter to the martins if I move it over about ten feet are so, that way it would be further away from any trees. I had three pair to nest in the gourds on this rack this past season. Iam just not sure if it being moved would affect the martins that nested here the past season are not. Are would it be best to place it right back where it is now? I know they say when something works leave it along, but when I put this rack up a few years ago there were more trees and at that time I placed it in the best location, but due to some high winds about ten feet over would now be the best location for my rack, any advice would be greatly appreciated.
It wont be long now!!!!
Replacing An Old Gourd Rack With A New One
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Davlyn
Ten feet isn't going to bother them. It may cause a momentary pause to a returning martin that nested there last season, but not much, especially if you can keep the same orientation (although with a gourd rack probably that doesn't matter either).
Moving 20 feet or more might be significant, but even then, I'd opt for for more open.
I bet you have a dozen pairs this year if the regional population is about the same. We'll all be holding our breath to see if the hurricane did much harm, but hopefully not.
John Miller
Ten feet isn't going to bother them. It may cause a momentary pause to a returning martin that nested there last season, but not much, especially if you can keep the same orientation (although with a gourd rack probably that doesn't matter either).
Moving 20 feet or more might be significant, but even then, I'd opt for for more open.
I bet you have a dozen pairs this year if the regional population is about the same. We'll all be holding our breath to see if the hurricane did much harm, but hopefully not.
John Miller
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
I would put up the new gourd rack at the new place, but leave the old one at the old location with about 1 or 2 gourds on the old rack. After you have martins at the new gourd rack, then you could take down the old one. You may be able to take down the old one before they build nests, or you may need to wait until next year to take down the old rack.
It is generally recommended that you not move the pole more than 5 feet, but if your martins have been there for several years, I think that you could probably move it 10 ft but I am not positive what would happen. Some people think that they may abandon the location.
It is generally recommended that you not move the pole more than 5 feet, but if your martins have been there for several years, I think that you could probably move it 10 ft but I am not positive what would happen. Some people think that they may abandon the location.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Emil
With all respect, I don't think I agree with you on this one. Leaving the old rack and a few gourds (I'm assuming using same gourds) is just going to cause the birds and Davlyn stress and confusion. Better to make a clean move.
If there are a signficant number of sites that have been lost by moving a setup 5 to 10 feet, then I'm wrong.
John M
John m
With all respect, I don't think I agree with you on this one. Leaving the old rack and a few gourds (I'm assuming using same gourds) is just going to cause the birds and Davlyn stress and confusion. Better to make a clean move.
If there are a signficant number of sites that have been lost by moving a setup 5 to 10 feet, then I'm wrong.
John M
John m
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
John, I am just following old recommended procedures. You surely have the right to disagree. Thru several decades of raising martins, I have learned that no answer is always correct. By the way, I have no way of doing such extended record keeping as knowing how many were lost by moving the house too far. I apologize to you John, I was just giving my opinion. I surely don't want to stress her martins, nor do I wish to stress Davlyn
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Emil
I was playing devil's advocate -- wanted a little more supporting information for your advice to Davlyn. And I got it. I did not know that the PMCA says moving more than 5 feet can cause some risk of abandonment.
Every site is so different. If Davlyn were in Michigan, I'd definitely be more cautious. But I think it's good to take time and think out any kind of tinkering and possible outcomes with sites before proceeding.
John M.
I was playing devil's advocate -- wanted a little more supporting information for your advice to Davlyn. And I got it. I did not know that the PMCA says moving more than 5 feet can cause some risk of abandonment.
Every site is so different. If Davlyn were in Michigan, I'd definitely be more cautious. But I think it's good to take time and think out any kind of tinkering and possible outcomes with sites before proceeding.
John M.
John and Emil thank you both for your opinions I think that Ill leave it
where it is, Ill just be happy to be able to keep a check on whats going
on inside, before I would have to wait on my husband to to let it up and
down. Once again thank you both.
It wont be long now!!!
where it is, Ill just be happy to be able to keep a check on whats going
on inside, before I would have to wait on my husband to to let it up and
down. Once again thank you both.
It wont be long now!!!
April McClelland
PMCA Member
PMCA Member
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
Davlyn, I definitely would move it the 5ft or so.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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Guest
Since you are willing to leave a pole in it's current location (doesn't appear to be hurting anything), you may want to follow Emil's advise about adding the other pole and offering 2 poles for 1 season. I'm sure your martins from last year will go back to the original pole (with only a few gourds) at first but several will switch to the new pole.......maybe all since it's more open and possibly better flyways. The open area around the new pole may attract a few new pair as well. Next Sept. you can take down the old pole leaving the new pole in the new and better location. And remmeber, your trees will not get smaller.....only bigger......and you will struggle with the same dilemma if you need to move the pole in the future. The easiest it will ever be is right now.
I mention this as the new location will give you the best chance of attracting new martins. I don't know your site but it sounds like the new location is safer for the martins (meaning further from trees where hawks can hide). I believe the procedure recommended by the PMCA to move a pole is.......add the new pole before season then take down the old pole after the season. It's no additional effort save moving most of your gourds from the old rack to the new rack) and gives you the best chance of success both short term and long term.
I mention this as the new location will give you the best chance of attracting new martins. I don't know your site but it sounds like the new location is safer for the martins (meaning further from trees where hawks can hide). I believe the procedure recommended by the PMCA to move a pole is.......add the new pole before season then take down the old pole after the season. It's no additional effort save moving most of your gourds from the old rack to the new rack) and gives you the best chance of success both short term and long term.
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John Barrow
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:12 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi / Sandia , Texas
Hi Davlyn. You will have no problem moving your pole ten feet and changing out to a better gourd rack system. Sometimes martins are fickle when you change housing types {like getting rid of gourds in favor of a small house} or if you move your housing a substanial distance away so that it creates a different presentation, but I have never heard of anyone moving a pole a short distance and opening a flyway losing their martins.
I don't know where the PMCA states moving a pole over 5 feet is a no no. I have never seen that in any of their literature, and if it is there, I would suggest it has little bearing in the south where martins are more plentiful.
Martin behavior is no doubt different in the far south than in the far north. That PMCA has opened an extension office in South Texas and is studying some of these differences is commendable.
Whether your martins from last season will return to your site is a more difficult question to answer. Migration is perilous and many don't return. That's one reason I feel that upgrading housing is always safe to safeguard a colony. You might not get the same martins by upgrading your colony, but you will probably get some, and often many more.
Best wishes this season. Jb
I don't know where the PMCA states moving a pole over 5 feet is a no no. I have never seen that in any of their literature, and if it is there, I would suggest it has little bearing in the south where martins are more plentiful.
Martin behavior is no doubt different in the far south than in the far north. That PMCA has opened an extension office in South Texas and is studying some of these differences is commendable.
Whether your martins from last season will return to your site is a more difficult question to answer. Migration is perilous and many don't return. That's one reason I feel that upgrading housing is always safe to safeguard a colony. You might not get the same martins by upgrading your colony, but you will probably get some, and often many more.
Best wishes this season. Jb
~~TEAMED WITH A MARTIN GODDESS~~
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
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John Barrow
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:12 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi / Sandia , Texas
Hi Davlyn. Glad you are upgrading your site. I wanted to share an experience the other day with my post but didn't have time. It is a little long, but I have the time now.
In 2001, my Corpus Christi colony was housed in a 3 story coates house-12 compartments converted to 6-with 6 gourds hanging below on PMCA perching arms. That year I had an alpha male dominate one entire side of the coates house, and another male dominating the other side. The alpha male tried to dominate the gourds too. I ended up with the 2 pairs- a decrease from the prior year- and one sub adult batchelor male who I named "Lowrider". He was harassed and attacked time and again by the older males, but stuck around and searched relentlessly for a mate.
The next year the dominant males again took over the coates house, and lowrider moved into a troyer HG on a new gourd rack adjacent to the house with its 6 gourds. While the males dominated their system, lowrider was a host to any martins passing over. He intercepted and returned with many migrants and the gourd rack did quite well that season.
In 2003, I decided to upgrade my housing and purchased and installed a LS Goliad, with an add a rack that held 8 gourds. After much of the ASY migration had occurred and at which time I had 8 ASY pairs, including Lowrider back in his troyer hg, the alpha male returned and was odviously distraught with the change from the coates to the goliad--which I knew was a much better house, and one that I had spent a lot of money to acquire. The alpha male would hang from one story and drop to the one below, go in different compartments, but never did he show any real interest in the house. It was as though he was looking for the coates. After several days of this behavior, he left the colony taking 4 of the 8 ASY pairs with him. That very much worried me as I only had 4 asy pairs left and the season was moving along. The alpha male had such a strong influence on the colony I feared I would lose them all. I never got more than the 4.
I had ordered and received a new ground socket for the goliad and intended to pull upand move the goliad to an inferior location and reinstall the coates in hopes of getting some martins back. At the same time Lowrider continued to invite flyovers down for a look at the site, and a day or two before I would have moved the goliad and put the coates back up, the sy martins began to arrive in mass. In two days, I picked up 11 PAIRS of SYs that joined the colony. I ended up with 5 or 6 pairs in the goliad, the add a rack was about full, and I had 25 pairs for the season. Domination became the exception rather than the norm and my site forever changed, at least through the present time.
I learned at that time that offering better housing is never a bad idea, but it does require some faith to make the changes. I have helped a number of people start and/or upgrade their sites. My strategy is to find the best location, offer the best housing that they can afford, and have faith in the outcome. Along the way there has been much doubt, much worry and much uncertainty, but all, in the long run have been successful.
In a couple of weeks it will all start again. There will be posts of early arrivals--representing a very, very small percentage of the martin population. Mentees will email wondering why their martins havn't returned, and there will be many posts related to missing martins. There will be much doubt, much worry and much uncertainty, but in the long run most previously successful landlords will see return of martins. I suspect you will to. Offer the best you can and have faith.
Best of luck with your changeover and season. jb
In 2001, my Corpus Christi colony was housed in a 3 story coates house-12 compartments converted to 6-with 6 gourds hanging below on PMCA perching arms. That year I had an alpha male dominate one entire side of the coates house, and another male dominating the other side. The alpha male tried to dominate the gourds too. I ended up with the 2 pairs- a decrease from the prior year- and one sub adult batchelor male who I named "Lowrider". He was harassed and attacked time and again by the older males, but stuck around and searched relentlessly for a mate.
The next year the dominant males again took over the coates house, and lowrider moved into a troyer HG on a new gourd rack adjacent to the house with its 6 gourds. While the males dominated their system, lowrider was a host to any martins passing over. He intercepted and returned with many migrants and the gourd rack did quite well that season.
In 2003, I decided to upgrade my housing and purchased and installed a LS Goliad, with an add a rack that held 8 gourds. After much of the ASY migration had occurred and at which time I had 8 ASY pairs, including Lowrider back in his troyer hg, the alpha male returned and was odviously distraught with the change from the coates to the goliad--which I knew was a much better house, and one that I had spent a lot of money to acquire. The alpha male would hang from one story and drop to the one below, go in different compartments, but never did he show any real interest in the house. It was as though he was looking for the coates. After several days of this behavior, he left the colony taking 4 of the 8 ASY pairs with him. That very much worried me as I only had 4 asy pairs left and the season was moving along. The alpha male had such a strong influence on the colony I feared I would lose them all. I never got more than the 4.
I had ordered and received a new ground socket for the goliad and intended to pull upand move the goliad to an inferior location and reinstall the coates in hopes of getting some martins back. At the same time Lowrider continued to invite flyovers down for a look at the site, and a day or two before I would have moved the goliad and put the coates back up, the sy martins began to arrive in mass. In two days, I picked up 11 PAIRS of SYs that joined the colony. I ended up with 5 or 6 pairs in the goliad, the add a rack was about full, and I had 25 pairs for the season. Domination became the exception rather than the norm and my site forever changed, at least through the present time.
I learned at that time that offering better housing is never a bad idea, but it does require some faith to make the changes. I have helped a number of people start and/or upgrade their sites. My strategy is to find the best location, offer the best housing that they can afford, and have faith in the outcome. Along the way there has been much doubt, much worry and much uncertainty, but all, in the long run have been successful.
In a couple of weeks it will all start again. There will be posts of early arrivals--representing a very, very small percentage of the martin population. Mentees will email wondering why their martins havn't returned, and there will be many posts related to missing martins. There will be much doubt, much worry and much uncertainty, but in the long run most previously successful landlords will see return of martins. I suspect you will to. Offer the best you can and have faith.
Best of luck with your changeover and season. jb
~~TEAMED WITH A MARTIN GODDESS~~
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
Member/Mentor-PMCA. I do regular nestchecks and participate in PROJECT MARTINWATCH!! Coordinated 3 geolocator studies-2009, 2010 & 2013. State and Fed licensed bander (retired Jan., 2020)
Hi John, sounds like your strategy worked great. Even though I will be moving my pole over a bit the gourds will be the same, except I will add a few natural gourds to my new rack to make it complete. The rack I have now only holds 8 gourds, maybe the martins will be pleased!! Ive got
faith and patience and with a little more work Ill be ready! Thanks for
sharing your experience, and I loved the way it turned out.
Best of luck to you in the up coming season!!
faith and patience and with a little more work Ill be ready! Thanks for
sharing your experience, and I loved the way it turned out.
Best of luck to you in the up coming season!!
April McClelland
PMCA Member
PMCA Member
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CUL Lou~Mich
Davlyn. Even though I've never hosted PMs, I'd personally opt for "Going better." I wish I had the option of going better, but believe the housing IS in the BEST location in my yard right now. I don't know of anything I could do that would make it any better, so guess I'll just have to persevere, and hope for the best, like I've been doing for 35+ years now. Sure wish they were more abundant here in the North, but alas, they aren't. Living in the South as you do, I personally don't think you could go wrong by moving a few feet to a "Better Location." I think that would only improve things at your site. Best of luck to you. CUL Lou
Hi CLU Lou~Mich, thats a long time to be waiting, maybe this will be your
year!! If I could I would send you a few, that is if Iam fortunate enough
to have them again this season. Keep looking up you never know what
you might see! Best of luck to you this season.
year!! If I could I would send you a few, that is if Iam fortunate enough
to have them again this season. Keep looking up you never know what
you might see! Best of luck to you this season.
April McClelland
PMCA Member
PMCA Member