Will martins use small compartment with SREH ?

[Dave Duit]

I have a homemade 24 compartment wooden PM house, compartment size is 7.5 X 7.5 X 7.5. I recently heard that martins rarely use houses with small comaprtment sizes that have SREH. Is this true ? Maybe that's why I haven't had martins for the past 5 years.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Dave, I doubt that martins will not use your house because of the compartment size, I think yours would be large enough, but a deeper compartment would give them more protection from owls. It has been proven many times lately that if your martins like the location, that the entrance holes have no effect on them staying there. The entrance holes may cause them to be hesitant at the beginning, but if they like the location, they they will figure out how to get into them. If you made your own entrances, and if they are the correct size, it may be the thickness of the entrances. Martins can learn to get into a very thin entrance much quicker than they can learn to get into an entrance that is 3/4in thick. I would strongly recommend a very THIN entrance that is not undersize. Also, martins can learn to use SREH quicker if you have porches where they can get traction and push & wiggle their way into the cavity. Be sure that the martins can get good traction.

If you have not had martins for 5 years, It may be because you have trees too close to the martin house, or either you live in an area that does not have many martins. I have a neighbor that cannot attract martins because his house is within about 40 ft of a forest, his martin house sits in a hole with trees nearly 3/4 of the way around his house, and the martins will not go there and stay, they take a look & leave. His martin house has round holes with 6x6x6 in compartments. Martins like a wide open area.

[Guest]

Dave,

At the opening of this season, our Trio Grampa house (unmodified, with the original cubicle-style chambers), was not equipped with SREH entrances.

Our small group of martins was having problems with starlings, so we went ahead and bought replacements for the standard round entrances: SREH plates.

The martins were not too keen on these new entrances at first, but they eventually adapted to them, even with the small nest chambers. It helped that they had already started building nests when we installed the SREHs.

[Dave Duit]

Thanks for the input. I cut down a tree that was 40 feet from the house, had the entrances made thin and to the correct size as recommended by this website and have porch rail for traction, and I live on a lake. But still no takers in four years. I think my solution will be just to wait and be patient. I
have put up a new house, manufactured, 12 compartment with 6 X 6 X 12 compartment sizes. Hopefully this will pull in a few next year. Thanks for the advice.

[Guest]

We too have a 12 Room Trio and had to add SREH doors after a major starling attack. We did put traction tape down on the outside porch to help them get in and will probably put more on the inside now that the house is empty.

Most of the Martins stayed around, some even laid eggs after the SREH were put on. We had a couple of nests abandoned later, but these were nests that had been constructed and eggs laid AFTER the SREH were installed, so we're still trying to figure out what happened there.

So, the SREH did keep the starlings out, we still had nesting martins, but we got a ton of advice to modify the rooms larger if we are going to use these doors. I'm hesitant to do this...not sure how the house is put together on the pole, since I didn't construct it...i'm afraid of somehow damaging the only house we have by trying to modify it.


Anyway, our martins adjusted to the SREH on the small compartments for the most part, that's my point of this ramble.

[CUL Lou~Mich]

Ren. Can you describe the house? Perhaps someone can advise you as to how to expand the apartments. If it's a trio/musselman, then it's really pretty simple. CUL Lou

[Laverne]

Hi Dave.

You might consider hanging 3 or 4 natural gourds with "round" holes beneath that house. Leave them natural and don't put any porches on them (just to keep it simple and to help keep the starlings out). That way, you can offer cavities with round holes and SREH and find out if that is the deterrant (without having to modify your house). Quite a few landlords this past season had luck attracting their first ever pair to housing with round holes. It's worth a try. Are you putting nesting material in your cavities? I would recommend a handful or two of pine needles.

Do you see many martins in your area - have you had visitors? Your site sounds like the perfect place for PMs. I know Iowa is on the border of the area PMs breed in - I just don't know how dense the population is up there.

If there is a sparse population, are you playing Dawnsong or Daytime Chatter CDs to draw them in? There are a lot of little things you could try. Good luck with your efforts and best wishes for success...

[Laverne]

Hi Ren and Dave.

I used to have homemade wooden houses. They all had 6 x 6 cavities. When we began to attract starlings, we changed the round holes to SREH. The PMs used these houses for 3 years. The reason for larger cavities is to give the PM a deeper cavity for safety from hawks, owls, and even starlings reaching in and destroying their nests. Plus, more room means larger clutches. If you increase the size of the cavity and don't put a SREH'd entrance on it, then you will be overwhelmed by starlings. They love the larger cavity, too - and will fight the PM (to the death) for the right to nest there. This is the way I remember it all happening. I don't know who claimed that PMs don't like smaller cavities with SREH. They will use them - if that is all there is to nest in...

Ren, as for your abandoned eggs, several things could have caused this. Sometimes eggs just don't hatch. SY females don't always incubate properly and their eggs won't hatch because of this. Sometimes the female will be taken by hawk or other predator - and this will result in failure of eggs to hatch. As for modifying your house - don't be afraid of it. Like Lou said, somebody on this Forum can help you modify it. They do it all the time. I'm sorry to hear about your Starling problems. I'm glad you got it remedied and your colony enjoyed some success. That's what it's all about.

[Dave Duit]

Thanks for the advice. I do have gourds and I do use nesting material(pine needles and I played dawnsong and daytime chatter CD.
I do have martins visit and look into compartments, but no takers. All SREH are of correct size. Very close watch on starlings and rip out sparrow nests as soon as I see one. But, I still appreciate all the input everyone has given.

[Laverne]

What about the round holes? Have you tried smearing some mud around the entrance holes?

I can't think of anything else... could be it will just take a little more time for the right male "and" female to come along.

Maybe I could send you one of the nasty old used nests from my birds. Maybe the sight and smell of an obviously used nest would trigger something in one of those visitors...

[John Miller]

Ren

As you are in the Columbia, Mo area, if you want to look at a modified house and are in St. Louis, Mo., send me a PM and a day's notice. I did four of these last winter. I also can walk you through it via email.

Dave

Sometimes when some of us are successful, we swear by this or that technique. So...I'm now a believer in a couple of natural gourds hanging from the house. I still like houses, but a few gourds add variety and make the site more interesting to martins. You don't even have to have SREH or ports and such, just a couple with round holes to see if you can get some action going.

John Miller
St. Louis, mo

[Dave Duit]

I really do appreciate all the responses. I laugh because I have tried everything everyone has suggested already. Including smearing mud on outside of entrances and yes round holes too. lol. I think what my problem in attracting martins could be that the martin house is a one of a kind homemade house. very large and the shear size is unusual for the martins. The house is about 3 X 3 X 3 feet. It weighs a ton, or at least thats what it felt like when initially putting it up. Anyway, I thank everyone for the input.

[Matt F.]

Hi Dave.

You might consider hanging 3 or 4 natural gourds with "round" holes beneath that house. Leave them natural and don't put any porches on them (just to keep it simple and to help keep the starlings out). That way, you can offer cavities with round holes and SREH and find out if that is the deterrant (without having to modify your house). Quite a few landlords this past season had luck attracting their first ever pair to housing with round holes. It's worth a try. Are you putting nesting material in your cavities? I would recommend a handful or two of pine needles.

Do you see many martins in your area - have you had visitors? Your site sounds like the perfect place for PMs. I know Iowa is on the border of the area PMs breed in - I just don't know how dense the population is up there.

If there is a sparse population, are you playing Dawnsong or Daytime Chatter CDs to draw them in? There are a lot of little things you could try. Good luck with your efforts and best wishes for success...

Laverne,
Do porchless gourds, even with round holes, tend to be starling free?

[Matt F.]

Laverne has left the building.......

[Laverne]

No, Matt (I'm sorry that I misled you) - Porchless gourds with round holes can still be entered by Starlings. But, it is more difficult for them and if they have other options they will choose those first. Porchless gourds with SREH have proven to be Starling free - even with a properly installed porch where the surface of the porch is 1/4" or less from the bottom of the entrance hole (crescent or obround) the Starling is "resisted". Drop that porch down below 1/4" and the Starling can now enter. I discovered this, personally, at my colony this season.

My point, in making that statement, was to suggest that Dave offer some round holes, too - even at the risk of attracting a Starling. He says he's already doing that - so, this must not be the problem.

Hey Dave. Have you seen the gigantic PM house Victor Stoll has?

However, if most of the PM housing in your area is small - perhaps you should try what is familiar to the PM population in your direct vicinity.

[joeincan]

You mentioned you live on a lake. I had problems attracting PMs until I put the house out in the lake. I sunk the pole out about 40ft and the martins were circling as I was raising the house. Good Luck!

[Guest]

From my experience I can tell you again, "never" use non-SREH entrance holes after enlarging compartments. The starlings, in my case, went from a moderate problem to a "nightmare" of a problem, until I was able to get the SREHs on. Also, in regards to using SREHs on small compartments, I think it would be fine if they were cresents, but I read on this forum, or on the PMCA site somewhere, that because of the low entry height distance from the house floor to the "excluder" entry hole (the standard excluder entry hole sets lower then the round or cresent holes), adding in the fact that the nest would be built right next to the entry hole (because of the small compartment), and with consideration to the average depth of martin nest, that all this together may present a problem for the purple martins. In other words, the nest would be, at the least, partially blocking the entry hole. Conslusion: Cresents possible would be OK for small compartments, but maybe not the Excluder type. Ben

[CUL Lou~Mich]

Laverne. Re

Hey Dave. Have you seen the gigantic PM house Victor Stoll has?

Yep, I've seen it. However, I really don't think this would be a good example, since Victor Stoll had PMs Waaaayy before he (Actually his sons and son-in-laws) put it (Actually two of the large ones) up. I belleve Dave was worried that they wouldn't like it, since he does not have nesting PMs, and he thought it might be intimidating to them.
Someone asked if gourds with round holes were "Starling free" (Words to that effect.) No. Starlings also like the round holed gourds. However, in some folks cases (Those who are able legally and safely to shoot) it does slow the Starlings down just enough to get a good aim. I especially like the horizontal gourds I have, with a round hole in the bottom under the neck. I've shot several European Starlings off them. CUL Lou

[Laverne]

In other words, the nest would be, at the least, partially blocking the entry hole. Conslusion: Cresents possible would be OK for small compartments, but maybe not the Excluder type. Ben

...and excluders on 7 x 12 compartments can be dangerous if placed too close to the interior floor of the cavity. The last year we had our T-14 style house up, a late nest was several days late in fledging - so, I finally lowered the house to see if something was wrong. It was. The young PMs had been sitting at the entrance of the cavity to be fed and their droppings had built up in the entrance enough to prevent them from exiting the cavity. When I lowered the house - they all moved to the back of the cavity, I opened the door and pulled the pile of droppings out of the cavity and closed the door. The nest began to fledge within 30 minutes of raising the house back up.

[Guest]

Hey Laverne, I never had that problem, my house is a modified trio grandpa ms12 (with excluders). The young birds hung in the entrance to feed for a few days before fledgeing, but there was never that much build up, not even close to it.