Could use some cementing advice

[BillieJR]

Ok - so I've got the new pole/gourd rack. It's been sitting on my porch for several days now. I had planned to dig the hole and get it cemented in while we had a bit of a break in the freezing night-time temps between this past Sunday and today but I got sick on the weekend and then by the time I was doing better, my husband landed in the hospital so I was not able to get it done at all. Now they are talking about night-time temps in the 20s and teens the next few nights. I read up on the temps for pouring cement and how it should be above freezing for 72 hours after it's poured. Is this what you also would recommend or did you pour it in colder temps? I'm chomping at the bit to get this done and I don't really want to wait until next week later, to do it but I may have to. I haven't seen where there are PMs in Wisconsin at all, yet, and I really hope they aren't in any hurry to get here because our weather absolutely sucks! But I want to be prepared. I'm guessing, if I have any luck at all this year, it will not be with the "early birds" so even if some do get up here in the next week, they probably wouldnt' take up residence at my place - but I just still am starting to panic.

Any and all advice will be appreciated. Thank you!

[Doug Martin - PA]

Are you sure the ground is not frozen below the surface? If it is you should probably wait. Be tough to dig through that.

Otherwise you could do it a few ways. Depending on how you want it to look when finished.

1. You could merely dump the bag (s) of mix in the hole and level the pole by tamping around it. No need to add water. It will absorb the moisture it needs and harden up over time. Cover it with plastic if heavy rain is forecast.


2. Mix the concrete and pour it in. Cover it with a piece of cardboard or plastic or both. This will protect it till cured. Just cut a hole in the middle the size of the post and cut to it and drape it around like a Christmas tree apron.

Don't remember how big this setup is you are installing but you will need plenty of concrete for a 24 gourd setup.


Doug

[Archer]

Your concrete could crumble if it freezes. If your ground is not frozen, you could pour it, but them it would need to be insulated to keep from freezing. If you have a few bats of the pink insulation and covered them to keep them from blowing away, you should be ok.

[BillieJR]

Thanks for your advice and tips.

Yes - the ground seems to be clear of frost now. Finally.

My pole is one of the 3 inch square ones. I'm only going to be putting 8 gourds up to begin with. I'll work up to 24, if and when I actually get a colony started.

I've been reading up on the quik-rete where it sets very fast. It says it's good for cold weather and I can use hot water. The daytime temps are going to be in the 40s - it's the night time temps that are still dipping down below freezing.

[John Miller]

delete

[CapnJack]

Billie

No need to pour any concrete at all. Do it next year or in the fall.
Last year I reconfigured my poles and I did not want to cement in just in case I was not happy with
locations. So I just filled up some sand bags and put alongside the poles to make it through the season.
I have the 2" Square Rack System and it made it through a 70 MPH wind storm last summer no problem.

Sincerely

[phldave]

Billie,
I am a Senior civil engineering technician by trade and everything I have heard is sound advice. I would recommend a 6 to 8" diameter post hole 30 to 48" inches deep, the deeper the better, to withstand the overturning moment of wind blowing on your setup. If your don't put a cap on the concrete like John suggested, at least put a crown on it so water will run off. By all means, protect the concrete from freezing until it is cured, for at least a couple weeks or until the threat of frost is over. A handful of granular fill at the bottom of the hole would also be good for drainage.
Also do your best to make the pole as plumb as possible by using a good carpenters level.
Hope this helps.

[flyin-lowe]

I have dug a lot of holes for poles of different types. So far none of them have failed. One thing I found on commercial martin poles that I have done is they sometime underestimate the amount of concrete it will take. As others have said as long as the ground is not frozen you should be fine. I am guessing this time of year if it was still frozen it would only be a few inches, once you get down further then that the ground will be at a pretty constant temp, you can probably google that info for your area. Whenever I do mine I dig the hole to what ever specs you need. Set the pole and then just dump the dry bags of mix in, you can then use the hose to moisten the concrete. It does not have to be exact. If you don't quite get it wet enough it will draw moisture from the ground, if you get it too wet it will still set up just, slower. I've never done it but have been told concrete gets poured under water and it will still set up. If you were building some type of structural support I would be more exact with the mix, but to set a pole, dump the bags in and add water until it looks wet enough.
I also keep a 2 foot level handy, after I add the water I check the level on all "4" sides. After about 1/2 hour to an hour I check it again. Once you add the water they usually don't move much but I still check one more time after it starts to set up.

[BillieJR]

I love and appreciate all of this awesome advice, thank you all so much!

Another question I have is.......I know it says to pour concrete in the pole itself so water doesn't go down in. I am wondering - could you put the concrete in the hole, first, and then put the post in. I am thinking the post would fill up with concrete as I'm sticking it down into the concrete. Is that an ok idea or is it better to first put the pole in, then pour the concrete into the hole, and then pour concrete into the pole that way?

I've read directions on 2 different websites about how to put the pole into the ground, phldave. One place said to put a few inches of gravel in the bottom before the concrete and the other didn't say a think about gravel. Thanks!

[John Miller]

I like to put a cap or sleeve of concrete up at ground level around the pole, about 5-6 inches high and about 8 inches wide. Can do with a form section, or I have just used a piece cut from a black plastic flower pot. Helps protect the pole from getting hit by lawnmowers and looks nice. However, if one does this, the pole won't slip down as far over the mounting post, so takes some thought and maybe pull the pole up in the concrete 5-6 inches if you want x height of mounting post up in the pole, and probably the more the better for pole strength. I'm not an engineer or concrete guy, so take this with a grain of salt...or sand.

P.S. One other thing, if this is a mounting post from the PMCA, the part with the flange attached to the side goes on top, but with the flanged part down in the concrete a few inches at least. Sometimes people put these posts upside down. If this is a solid aluminum one-piece mounting post, then disregard.

[BillieJR]

Thanks - and yes, this is a pole from PMCA. I hope I put it in the right way. Now I'll be worried about that but I'm glad you mentioned it so I take extra precautions to pay attention when I'm doing it.

That's a good idea about protecting the pole from mowers. I never thought about that. Thanks again!

[BillieJR]

CapnJack - how interesting. I hadn't ever even considered doing something like that. Hmmmm, definitely food for thought. Thanks!

[paule]

Wow, didn't realize all the good masons in the PMCA. Good advice in above posts. I believe adding course gravel or pee gravel in the bottom of the hole is important. Nothing wrong with tamping dry gavel mix in the hole while using a good level on the 4 sides. Used to do this to get the most solid/accurate sets for satellite dishes. The mix will actually swell and create warmth while curing. I would recommend leaving a few inches below ground so you can pour a wet cap of your choosing. I prefer to pour wet sand mason mix in the post as this is more for strength than anything else. If really cold I would wrap the post to insulate it from freezing. This is how I prefer to do mine.
Paul

[flyin-lowe]

I put about a 2 foot circle of gravel/stone around my poles so I don't have to get too close with the mower. Use whatever method you choose to kill the weeds and grass. I also put a few inches of gravel in the bottom of the holes before I put the poke and concrete in.

[~Ray~Gingerich]

I have set 12 poles in last few years, I use the 5000 pound mix then add a bit of high early and mix again. I pour the mix then sink the ground stake into the concrete. When you fill the ground stake gently tap the sides with hammer to help fill in any air pockets. Check it for level the second time about 15 minutes later and it should be good to go the next day.

[BillieJR]

Thank you, you guys!!! I feel so much better now, with all this information everyone has given me. I can't possibly screw it up, right? If I do, it's not for your lack of trying to help me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all your advice and tips. Thanks again!