I have been researching and reading everything I can find, on here, to get an idea which would be the better to order. However, there are so many different posts about this and it's taking longer than I really want to spend so I am hoping you all who have been successful with attracting PMs will give me your honest opinions/advice on these questions.
I am going to order a "Deluxe Gourd Rack Ultimate 24-Unit with 3" pole and winch. I was planning to order the "Combination Vertical/Horizontal". Is that a good idea? Or is it better to have all your gourds be the same?
Next question is - what, in your opinion, is the better gourd.......the S & K Boeleven, the Excluder or the Troyer? I read, somewhere on this forum, that the Excluders are larger. Also, the Boelevens have a 2 week shipping wait. (if that helps any of you who are willing to give me advice).
Thank you for any and all replies to these questions.
Billie
Gourd and rack advice/opinions
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John Miller
- Posts: 4867
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
I'll try to offer a few suggestions and be as objective as I can, but everyone develops a fondness for whatever type of gourd works best for them.
Do you have martins now? if not, suggest starting with 12 because preparing 24 could be time consuming. Most you'd hope to attract first year would be a few pairs.
I suggest the excluder gourd with a mix of excluder II and modified excluder entrances. I don't have hard numbers but believe the large deep gourd is best at fledging the greatest number of young. I know a number of highly competent and qualified hobbyists in MN who use it and I think would agree. One downside to it is that it does not have a factory indent for vents. But in Wisconsin, venting may not be necessary and if you do want to vent you can get lids with a vent. Another downside are the access lids. Last time I ordered, they do not come with the heavy duty lids, but maybe you can call and pay a little extra.
The Troyer gourds are good but the entrances are not as starling resistant as needed at some locations. A combination of vertical/horizontal would be fine, but horizontals are said to leak some. martins do tend to choose the horizontals first, but I'd just work in a few. They also tend to rock a little more in the wind. Some people feel the tunnels provide good owl protection, but I think because the excluder guards are large and heavy, they are pretty secure. Super Gourds I'd consider similar to excluder gourds, and they do come with heavy access port lids, but as I recall only the crescent SREH option.
The S&K gourds I read are pretty good with the inside shell at keeping temps a little lower in warmer parts of the martin range. They do come in several parts that have to be assembled and I prefer the deep bowl of the excluder, but I know many landlords have thriving colonies in them.
All that said, martins what a wide open site and folks who love um'. But hope this helps some.
John Miller
Do you have martins now? if not, suggest starting with 12 because preparing 24 could be time consuming. Most you'd hope to attract first year would be a few pairs.
I suggest the excluder gourd with a mix of excluder II and modified excluder entrances. I don't have hard numbers but believe the large deep gourd is best at fledging the greatest number of young. I know a number of highly competent and qualified hobbyists in MN who use it and I think would agree. One downside to it is that it does not have a factory indent for vents. But in Wisconsin, venting may not be necessary and if you do want to vent you can get lids with a vent. Another downside are the access lids. Last time I ordered, they do not come with the heavy duty lids, but maybe you can call and pay a little extra.
The Troyer gourds are good but the entrances are not as starling resistant as needed at some locations. A combination of vertical/horizontal would be fine, but horizontals are said to leak some. martins do tend to choose the horizontals first, but I'd just work in a few. They also tend to rock a little more in the wind. Some people feel the tunnels provide good owl protection, but I think because the excluder guards are large and heavy, they are pretty secure. Super Gourds I'd consider similar to excluder gourds, and they do come with heavy access port lids, but as I recall only the crescent SREH option.
The S&K gourds I read are pretty good with the inside shell at keeping temps a little lower in warmer parts of the martin range. They do come in several parts that have to be assembled and I prefer the deep bowl of the excluder, but I know many landlords have thriving colonies in them.
All that said, martins what a wide open site and folks who love um'. But hope this helps some.
John Miller
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Doug Martin - PA
- Posts: 1988
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pennsylvania/Fombell
- Martin Colony History: First pair in 2009 after 28 years of trying. 3 pairs 2010, 17 pairs 2011 and 35-45 pairs since. Many additional colonies are now springing up around mine in an area once completely void of Martins. I offer 50 compartments at my site consisting of primarily Excluder II gourds on Gemini racks. Also a wooden T-14. I utilize electric fence type predator guards on the base of the poles. Supplemental feeding is crucial in maintaining my colony. I platform feed throughout the season as needed. My site tends to be a stop over point for additional birds as they migrate further north.
I would mix a few different gourd types. The Troyer vertical are very good. The horizontals get a little messy. They can also be breached by starlings. John has good advice.
I have built a very nice colony in the north. Martins fight to fill my site each season.
My opinion?
A Gemini rack with primarily excluder with excluder II entrances is a great way to go. I have changed to 2 Gemini racks. One double and one single. Excluder gourds are highly productive and were chosen before all else when I started my colony. They also look good for many years. Others will tarnish after a few years. Never had a starling in one yet.
Doug
I have built a very nice colony in the north. Martins fight to fill my site each season.
My opinion?
A Gemini rack with primarily excluder with excluder II entrances is a great way to go. I have changed to 2 Gemini racks. One double and one single. Excluder gourds are highly productive and were chosen before all else when I started my colony. They also look good for many years. Others will tarnish after a few years. Never had a starling in one yet.
Doug
Supplemental feeding plays a major role in Western Pennsylvania. Finally got my 1st pair in 2009 after 28 years of effort. The colony has grown quickly to 45 pairs that I care for. Many new colonies have now sprung up around me in the past few years as well. Where there was none.... there is many.
Thank you SOOOO MUCH, John and Doug! I know your time is valuable and you took a lot of it to give me some very good advice.
No - I do not currently have martins. I did have them in the past but they haven't been here I would say for at least 5 years. Maybe more. I believe I lost them due to predators....namely snakes.....but that's just my speculation. I did not have predator guards. I had three 12 room aluminium houses that they nested in (I only have 2 left due to one of them being blown over and damaged during a storm) - but they were on poles that are near an empty lot full of rocks and weeds (and snakes). So I am going to add a rack of gourds but away from the empty lot. I did get 8 gourds last year and put 4 on the bottom of each house. We had some lookers/visitors - I think because of the Dawn song - but no takers. The 4 gourds on each house has made it extremely difficult for me to raise them due to the extra weight.
I wasn't originally planning to get a rack for 24 but pricing them out - the one I have chosen is the best deal, in my opinion. Plus I am getting a predator guard. I like the winch, which this particular rack has, plus the 3" square pole. I wasn't planning to get 24 gourds right off the bat. I am probably going to use the 8 that I already have and then add maybe 4 more - for this season. And I can always add more if the need arises (which I hope it does).
I like the Gemini rack but I am afraid it would be too difficult for me to figure out how to put together and I don't want to bother anyone else to help. My husband's health is not good so I am pretty much on my own with this. My neighbor loves PMs, too, and used to have them but his yard has lots of trees so he has decided to give up trying to get them back. When he had them, his trees were younger/shorter. Now they are really up there. He said he will help me dig the hole and he probably would help me with putting it together but I don't want to be too much of a pest about it. But the Gemini really is an awesome looking rack, that's for sure.
Thanks again, guys! This should give me enough information to make a good decision.
No - I do not currently have martins. I did have them in the past but they haven't been here I would say for at least 5 years. Maybe more. I believe I lost them due to predators....namely snakes.....but that's just my speculation. I did not have predator guards. I had three 12 room aluminium houses that they nested in (I only have 2 left due to one of them being blown over and damaged during a storm) - but they were on poles that are near an empty lot full of rocks and weeds (and snakes). So I am going to add a rack of gourds but away from the empty lot. I did get 8 gourds last year and put 4 on the bottom of each house. We had some lookers/visitors - I think because of the Dawn song - but no takers. The 4 gourds on each house has made it extremely difficult for me to raise them due to the extra weight.
I wasn't originally planning to get a rack for 24 but pricing them out - the one I have chosen is the best deal, in my opinion. Plus I am getting a predator guard. I like the winch, which this particular rack has, plus the 3" square pole. I wasn't planning to get 24 gourds right off the bat. I am probably going to use the 8 that I already have and then add maybe 4 more - for this season. And I can always add more if the need arises (which I hope it does).
I like the Gemini rack but I am afraid it would be too difficult for me to figure out how to put together and I don't want to bother anyone else to help. My husband's health is not good so I am pretty much on my own with this. My neighbor loves PMs, too, and used to have them but his yard has lots of trees so he has decided to give up trying to get them back. When he had them, his trees were younger/shorter. Now they are really up there. He said he will help me dig the hole and he probably would help me with putting it together but I don't want to be too much of a pest about it. But the Gemini really is an awesome looking rack, that's for sure.
Thanks again, guys! This should give me enough information to make a good decision.
Billie from southern Wisconsin
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Ed Svetich-WI
- Posts: 815
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:05 pm
- Location: Brooks, Wi (McGinnis Lake)
- Martin Colony History: 24 Super and Excluder Gourds on two gourd racks, all SREH. Full occupancy. My philosophy is to maximize fledge % with existing cavities rather than adding gourds to grow colony, thus providing opportunities for new colony expansion. Fledge over 100 nestlings yearly from 24 gourds. Band nestlings in cooperation with state university. 2019 Adendum: Reduced colony size to 12 gourds to focus on more intensive management regimen.
Billie,
Gourds are commonly used and accepted here in Wisconsin. I use both Super and Excluder Gourds with both crescent and modified excluded SREH. Starlings have not gained entry thus far. I have two 2 inch square poles with 12 gourds each. They have been unaffected by high winds. When full of martins, they are heavy. One pole with 24 gourds may be challenging. I know it would be for me.
You are wise to begin with the eight gourds that you already have. If you have been reading the Forum, you have seen posts from some who have invested upwards of $1000 and still have no martins. I have not priced gourd racks recently. Would two 2 inch poles be a less costly purchase? I am a proponent of starting reasonably as far as the number of cavities and growing into whatever amount of work that you can handle. As John said, initially you will begin with only a few pair at best. Once you have a sustaining number of returning ASY pair, you can add additional gourds.
Good luck in bringing back your martins. We still have a couple weeks before the ASY arrive. I may take advantage of the warm temperatures this week and get the racks up. After all, it may hit 50°.
Ed
Gourds are commonly used and accepted here in Wisconsin. I use both Super and Excluder Gourds with both crescent and modified excluded SREH. Starlings have not gained entry thus far. I have two 2 inch square poles with 12 gourds each. They have been unaffected by high winds. When full of martins, they are heavy. One pole with 24 gourds may be challenging. I know it would be for me.
You are wise to begin with the eight gourds that you already have. If you have been reading the Forum, you have seen posts from some who have invested upwards of $1000 and still have no martins. I have not priced gourd racks recently. Would two 2 inch poles be a less costly purchase? I am a proponent of starting reasonably as far as the number of cavities and growing into whatever amount of work that you can handle. As John said, initially you will begin with only a few pair at best. Once you have a sustaining number of returning ASY pair, you can add additional gourds.
Good luck in bringing back your martins. We still have a couple weeks before the ASY arrive. I may take advantage of the warm temperatures this week and get the racks up. After all, it may hit 50°.
Ed
Hi Ed! I was hoping to hear from you. Looks like we've made it thru another Wisconsin winter.......well, almost. Still time for some snow but yes - our temps may hit 50 this weekend, altho the long range forecast calls for 30s and maybe 40s next week again. Mother Nature does have a sense of humor, doesn't she?
I'm glad for your thoughts on this subject. The matter of how much the rack will weigh with 24 gourds on it - that's the reason I am going for a winch this time. I've never had one - only the rope/pulley system. And, as I said earlier, the 2 houses with the 4 gourds on each one are extremely difficult to raise up - and that's with them being empty. I worry that IF they were to get PMs in them with nests and babies, I would need help putting them back up and I even worry about the ropes not being able to handle it, eventually.
I know this rack will hold 24 but I wasn't planning to have 24. At least not any time soon. I know I will be lucky to get even just a pair or two to start out and gourds can be added, if I were to get more, over time. I think having a winch will help eleviate the problem of raising and lowering the rack.....don't you think? I had planned to get 4 more gourds to make 12 but maybe, as you suggested, I'll just stick with the 8 I already have for this season.
Also - this particular racks allows for both horizontal and vertical - which I have both kind of gourds already, 4 of each.
Also, in the back of my mind, this is probably going to be my last hoorah.......putting up, whatever I put up this year, will have to last me. I don't think there will be more. So I would like to make sure I do it good enough so I don't wish or want to go thru it again.
However, if you all think I'm looking at it the wrong way, please don't be afraid to tell me. I'm really using a lot of advice and trials and errors from you all that have been there, done that and are now successful.
Something that came to mind while I shoulda been sleeping lastnight was.......how can you safely do nest checks, etc, if you have some babies that are near fledging and others that are just new or haven't even hatched yet? I am thinking that could be a major problem - but that's a question for a different day. Right now I just want to decide on what I should get. If and when the day comes for that concern - I'll deal with it then. lol!
Thanks, Billie
I'm glad for your thoughts on this subject. The matter of how much the rack will weigh with 24 gourds on it - that's the reason I am going for a winch this time. I've never had one - only the rope/pulley system. And, as I said earlier, the 2 houses with the 4 gourds on each one are extremely difficult to raise up - and that's with them being empty. I worry that IF they were to get PMs in them with nests and babies, I would need help putting them back up and I even worry about the ropes not being able to handle it, eventually.
I know this rack will hold 24 but I wasn't planning to have 24. At least not any time soon. I know I will be lucky to get even just a pair or two to start out and gourds can be added, if I were to get more, over time. I think having a winch will help eleviate the problem of raising and lowering the rack.....don't you think? I had planned to get 4 more gourds to make 12 but maybe, as you suggested, I'll just stick with the 8 I already have for this season.
Also - this particular racks allows for both horizontal and vertical - which I have both kind of gourds already, 4 of each.
Also, in the back of my mind, this is probably going to be my last hoorah.......putting up, whatever I put up this year, will have to last me. I don't think there will be more. So I would like to make sure I do it good enough so I don't wish or want to go thru it again.
However, if you all think I'm looking at it the wrong way, please don't be afraid to tell me. I'm really using a lot of advice and trials and errors from you all that have been there, done that and are now successful.
Something that came to mind while I shoulda been sleeping lastnight was.......how can you safely do nest checks, etc, if you have some babies that are near fledging and others that are just new or haven't even hatched yet? I am thinking that could be a major problem - but that's a question for a different day. Right now I just want to decide on what I should get. If and when the day comes for that concern - I'll deal with it then. lol!
Thanks, Billie
Billie from southern Wisconsin
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Ed Svetich-WI
- Posts: 815
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:05 pm
- Location: Brooks, Wi (McGinnis Lake)
- Martin Colony History: 24 Super and Excluder Gourds on two gourd racks, all SREH. Full occupancy. My philosophy is to maximize fledge % with existing cavities rather than adding gourds to grow colony, thus providing opportunities for new colony expansion. Fledge over 100 nestlings yearly from 24 gourds. Band nestlings in cooperation with state university. 2019 Adendum: Reduced colony size to 12 gourds to focus on more intensive management regimen.
Billie,
Sounds like you have thought this thru. You will be able to grow into whatever size colony you determine works for you.
As to nest checks with different age nestlings, let's address that when that becomes an issue. One challenge at a time.
Ed
Sounds like you have thought this thru. You will be able to grow into whatever size colony you determine works for you.
As to nest checks with different age nestlings, let's address that when that becomes an issue. One challenge at a time.
Ed
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jpp77
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:21 pm
- Location: Lawrence, KS area
- Martin Colony History: 2015 - 1 pair, not successful (Sparrows)
2016 - 1 pair, 4 young
2017 - 5 pair, 23 young
2018 - 8 pair, 40 young, two deaths most likely due to heat.
2019 - 18 pair, 74 eggs, 1 nest abandoned, all the rest successful.
2020 - 32 nests, unknown exact egg numbers, 1 death.
I have Bo11+ gourds and I love them, but I admittedly have never used any other gourd so it would be hard for me to compare. I like the Bo11+ because of it's gourd within a gourd concept along with the vent caps. Provides great insulation and air flow during the hot days of summer. I doubt you can go wrong. This is my first year with my Gemini rack. Just got it up last weekend and I LOVE it.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Just some quick thoughts:
1. From my observations my martins seem to prefer a gourd rack that has all outward facing gourds. I just bought and installed a Gemini rack. So far I am extremely impressed - quality of construction, design, look, ease of raising and lowering, etc. The biggest difference I have noticed is the number of martins showing interest in the rack. Prior to this year I offered 16 gourds on a wooden PMCA rack I built. Probably 3-4 years of use. Best I ever did was 25% occupancy. I think the gourd proximity and flight pat created problems and lead to porch/gourd domination. The design of the Gemini seems to prevent this.
2. As far as gourds - I offer 4 troyer vertical (always 100% occupied), 8 Troyer Horizontals (75% occupied), 12 excluders with the exlcuder 2 entrance (1/16 over the last three years) and now I am offering 6 modified super gourds with troyer tunnels and excluder 2 entrance and 6 modified excluders with troyer tunnels and excluder 2 entrances. I expect the occupancy of these to be up. The unmodified excluders are receiving a lot of attention thus far. I pre-nested this year and think that is helping. My favorites are probably the troyer vertical and horizontals but i really like the SG and ExG I just modified. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the above.
1. From my observations my martins seem to prefer a gourd rack that has all outward facing gourds. I just bought and installed a Gemini rack. So far I am extremely impressed - quality of construction, design, look, ease of raising and lowering, etc. The biggest difference I have noticed is the number of martins showing interest in the rack. Prior to this year I offered 16 gourds on a wooden PMCA rack I built. Probably 3-4 years of use. Best I ever did was 25% occupancy. I think the gourd proximity and flight pat created problems and lead to porch/gourd domination. The design of the Gemini seems to prevent this.
2. As far as gourds - I offer 4 troyer vertical (always 100% occupied), 8 Troyer Horizontals (75% occupied), 12 excluders with the exlcuder 2 entrance (1/16 over the last three years) and now I am offering 6 modified super gourds with troyer tunnels and excluder 2 entrance and 6 modified excluders with troyer tunnels and excluder 2 entrances. I expect the occupancy of these to be up. The unmodified excluders are receiving a lot of attention thus far. I pre-nested this year and think that is helping. My favorites are probably the troyer vertical and horizontals but i really like the SG and ExG I just modified. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the above.
Evan337 - thank you so much for your info. I really like the looks of the Gemini rack, too. I'm glad for you that you were able to switch over to one. I look forward to hearing what you have to share with us about it this season. And thanks for the info on your gourds......so many options to choose from....I hope I make the right choice. thanks again and good luck this season.
thanks again and good luck this season.Billie from southern Wisconsin
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jpp77
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:21 pm
- Location: Lawrence, KS area
- Martin Colony History: 2015 - 1 pair, not successful (Sparrows)
2016 - 1 pair, 4 young
2017 - 5 pair, 23 young
2018 - 8 pair, 40 young, two deaths most likely due to heat.
2019 - 18 pair, 74 eggs, 1 nest abandoned, all the rest successful.
2020 - 32 nests, unknown exact egg numbers, 1 death.
Here is my Gemini with Bo11+ gourds
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