Roosting patterns and incubation time after eggs are laid

[mechlingfamily]

I am becoming paranoid...I hope...

We introduced our universal Sparrow traps to our routine today. We have two, placed in the two units of the six that have been the unit of choice for the HOSP lately. We caught a male and a female sparrow which were dealt with right away. Our martins were present today for a good amount of the day. But we rarely see the female actually incubating the five eggs. We were gone for several hours this afternoon and evening and arrived home to do our nightly nest check/HOSP nest clean out. We spent the rest of the evening outside until just before nightfall watching the house, but we never saw our Martins return. We are used to seeing them around 8-8:30. Should we be concerned? How much time DOES the female spend incubating per day? All the eggs look fine. Is it normal for them to return AFTER dark? Or not at all? Is the introduction of the traps causing them some trepidation? Usually we see around 2-6 flying above feeding but tonight there wasn't a single one anywhere to be seen. Even the sparrows seemed to be wary today.

Anxiety is creeping in...someone hold my hand please...

[Archer]

Martin behaviour can seldom be described as normal, they beat their own drum. Here's an example, yesterday evening almost every pair of martins came to the egg shell feeder. In anticipation that today would be the same I loaded it up this afternoon. A few flybys, but no egg shell feeding tonight. So don't be alarmed that you did not see your martins tonight, they will probably be sitting in their favorite spot in the morning.

[mechlingfamily]

When we did nest check on Thursday the female was inside the entrance room of their unit when we opened it up to count eggs. She stayed there and didn't try to leave. Once we started raising the house then she tried to leave. We have the SREHs and she seemed to struggle to get OUT, trying multiple times almost in a panic. She finally did. As I am looking back on the past few days, that is the absolute last time I am POSITIVE that SHE was at her nest. As we sit this morning watching and waiting, there has only been a pair of martin's checking things out but on the back side of the house, not in the front unit with the eggs. Nothing is happening at the unit with the eggs. Also the sparrows are already wise to the traps and have chosen a different unit to build in this morning. I don't want to close up the vacant holes. I just feel like maybe we have had great intentions to be wonderful landlords but have maybe intervened in too many ways that NONE of the birds want to be here now. Feeling VERY discouraged at the prospect of perhaps a SECOND failed nest this year... already have had three pair move in, two pair have laid eggs, and so far it appears that each attempt is ending in abandonment. It seems that as we feel secure with one pair, a new pair shows up and then the previous pair leaves.

[mechlingfamily]

STILL no activity...

Three martins came by yesterday...hovered and fluttered right at the house almost landing on the house, but then flew off. Haven't caught another sparrow since the first two. Still thinking we implemented too much change by adding the traps during incubation. I also think that the female was so scared that she couldn't get OUT of the SREH (even though that's all she's ever had there since well before this pair arrived.) that she fled permanently. The only other thing we did was also discontinue our Song Bird magnet on Thursday as I had read that it was better to let the existing Martins do the advertising.

Can't even bare to look at the empty house right now especially knowing there are 5 abandoned eggs inside. Didn't realize so much of my day is filled with glances out the window until I keep looking and see NOTHING...not even a SPARROW.

[DebA]

Just let it be. In my starting days I remember thinking the exact same thing about not seeing the PM's and wondering when is she going to sit. But things were fine and they hatched and Mom n Pop were there after all. I don't think your trapping is spooking them that much to abandon their eggs. Plus you are having enough activity to show they are interested and think you have a good thing going there.
Deb

[M.Stephens]

Fluttering and hovering martins at your house is usually a sign that something has happened. More than likely a rat snake has been up your pole and taken martins . They will abandon a site for this reason.

Do you have good predator guards on your pole?

[mechlingfamily]

Fluttering and hovering martins at your house is usually a sign that something has happened. More than likely a rat snake has been up your pole and taken martins . They will abandon a site for this reason.

Do you have good predator guards on your pole?

That was our next project...I had printed the directions for making a stovepipe predator guard off of the sialis site on Thursday.

Would a snake only take the birds and not the eggs?

Can you tell me anything more about the fluttering and hovering behavior?

My spare SY was just here on the house for about 5 minutes but left.

[DornCounty]

Fluttering and hovering martins at your house is usually a sign that something has happened. More than likely a rat snake has been up your pole and taken martins . They will abandon a site for this reason.

Do you have good predator guards on your pole?

That was our next project...I had printed the directions for making a stovepipe predator guard off of the sialis site on Thursday.

Would a snake only take the birds and not the eggs?

Can you tell me anything more about the fluttering and hovering behavior?

My spare SY was just here on the house for about 5 minutes but left.

A good predator baffle is top priority. make sure it can wobble and is at least 7" in DIA. with smooth sides.

[tim414]

We have a SLEW of snakes in this part of the country. A chicken snake (or rat snake as their also reffered to) WILL climb your pole. Usually happens in late evening or night. Although, if it's moving/hunting for dinner and it's hungry, it will climb your pole in daylight. But as daytime temps rise, they usually will stay in a cool place until the sun starts going down and then become active. If daytime temps remain under 90 degrees, they will move in daylight as well.

If you have a active nest, get the predator guard on.

I learned this early this season with Bluebirds. Something raided all the eggs from a couple boxes. I placed pred gurads on and they layed again. The parent bird was not harmed during this time.

As Malcolm stated, whenever a bird flutters around it's nest cavity but does not go into, something is TERRIBLY wrong. They are commited when they build nest/lay eggs in the cavity. For a wild bird to give it up, something is wrong.

[mechlingfamily]

Would the nest not show signs of a struggle if a snake got one or both of the birds? Nothing looked any different as the eggs and nest were not disturbed whatsoever.

The only thing that was any different was that we added the two traps and since they were ones for the round holes we covered the SREH holes just in those two units and placed the traps in the side with the old round hole. (We had modified our 12 unit house to larger 6 unit compartments) My DH wondered if changing the configuration of just those units would have confused them?

I am pretty sure the Martins that were fluttering and hovering were NOT the ones that are(were) nesting with us...but instead the ones who had been just checking us out. When they finally did land it was on the back side of the house not near the nest. I had never seen any of them act this way before though and I mentioned to my DH that it seemed they were afraid to land. So ANY of them can just sense that something bad happened to others?

I still just keep thinking about the female being so calm when we were checking the nest (we didn't know she was there til we opened the unit) and how she didn't try to flee while we had the unit open and yet she got so panicked as she tried repeatedly to escape through the SREH after we closed it up again.

[mechlingfamily]

A good predator baffle is top priority. make sure it can wobble and is at least 7" in DIA. with smooth sides.

The Kingston Stovepipe Predator Guard we were planning to make for our Martin house and Bluebird Nest Boxes has an 8" diameter, is 24" tall and is a free swinging baffle made out of galvanized stove or vent pipe without a seam, and 1/4" hardware cloth.

[tim414]

Sometimes the female does stay in the cavity when nest checking.

Good luck. I'm sure everything is ok. I would not wait to long to add the predator guard though. That's asking for problems.

BTW, I think the snake, if he had gone into the cavity would most definitely eat the eggs and leave no trace. Sometimes if their full, they will lay there while their dinner digests.

If your eggs are still there, I would bet had the snake been there, he would have take the eggs. I saw a chicken snake here eat a whole nest of guinea eggs anf I was shooting at him too. Finally had to shoot him. He wouldn't give up.

Good luck.

[Louise Chambers]

Mechling clan, it's possible that a hawk got the incubating female - or a snake. It's getting rather late for new nests in Texas, but this year the martins are running a bit later than usual - we have new eggs here in Corpus Christi. Maybe the visiting SY birds will get something going. I'd leave the eggs alone, just in case.

Get the cylinder baffle up pronto, and you should add netting as a back up system, since we have a lot of large rat snakes in Texas, that can sometimes bypass the baffle. You can't safely get by without the baffle, for raccoons.

I don't think adding the traps scared the martins off. Doing weekly nest checks helps the martins get used to human activities. Once martins have young, they are not leaving unless a disaster occurs. Females with eggs can be spooked away but I don't see where anything you did would have caused that.

[avesrun]

I'd still be interested to know if there has been any research done relating to the incubation of the martin eggs. Such as how low can the temps get and the eggs remain viable without incubation by the female or any other information relating to temps and martin eggs. Thanks!!
TimG

[mechlingfamily]

I'd still be interested to know if there has been any research done relating to the incubation of the martin eggs. Such as how low can the temps get and the eggs remain viable without incubation by the female or any other information relating to temps and martin eggs. Thanks!!
TimG

I would like to know this too! I know Iowa is bit different from Texas and we are more concerned about the heat than the cold BUT is it likely/possible that these eggs MIGHT still HATCH just from the hot temps here? ( Stupid newbie question?? )

And if SO then what happens to the babies?

[mechlingfamily]

Mechling clan, it's possible that a hawk got the incubating female - or a snake. It's getting rather late for new nests in Texas, but this year the martins are running a bit later than usual - we have new eggs here in Corpus Christi. Maybe the visiting SY birds will get something going. I'd leave the eggs alone, just in case.

Get the cylinder baffle up pronto, and you should add netting as a back up system, since we have a lot of large rat snakes in Texas, that can sometimes bypass the baffle. You can't safely get by without the baffle, for raccoons.

I don't think adding the traps scared the martins off. Doing weekly nest checks helps the martins get used to human activities. Once martins have young, they are not leaving unless a disaster occurs. Females with eggs can be spooked away but I don't see where anything you did would have caused that.

Thanks Louise!

We have been doing nest checks daily due to the sparrow activity and also counting the Martin eggs once they were laying... could we be checking too often? We just did it once a day at around 6pm when they were usually off feeding. HAD to get the sparrow nests/eggs out of the two units they were claiming each day before the traps arrived...

[Louise Chambers]

They cannot hatch without about 15 days of incubation by the female martin (her temp is about 105 degrees). Incubation does not begin until the day the next to last egg is laid.

Tim, I don't know of any specific research on incubation and martin eggs, temperature ranges, etc. There may be something more general about swallows, but that would be a pretty involved study.

[Louise Chambers]

It is sometimes easier to trap house sparrows if you leave eggs intact, and put the trap into compartment with some of nest material, and some or all of the eggs.

[mechlingfamily]

They cannot hatch without about 15 days of incubation by the female martin (her temp is about 105 degrees). Incubation does not begin until the day the next to last egg is laid.

That would have been the 5th and the last time I saw her for certain was the 11th so that won't be happening. I will leave them for now as you suggested...hatching would have been scheduled to begin on June 25th. When should I remove them once that date comes and goes with no progress?

Dang it! We were SOOO excited for success...

Next year is SOOO far away...but at least we will have a whole winter to make sure EVERYTHING is foolproof and ready. For now I guess we will return to catching up with things on the DVR since we have no Martins to watch.

[mechlingfamily]

It is sometimes easier to trap house sparrows if you leave eggs intact, and put the trap into compartment with some of nest material, and some or all of the eggs.

AHA! We will give that a try for certain...

So are daily next checks ok or too frequent?? I guess I assumed weekly checks were set more due to time constraints for folks that have huge colonies...clearly daily nest checks would not be convenient for them...but for the smaller colonies I guess I also thought daily checks kept you on top of possible issues right away. Just always want to do what is RIGHT...