2 pole failures this year! Need suggestions/advice.

[JWN]

We have a S & K 3-piece, triangular, telescoping aluminum pole with a double row of 6 gourds, for a total of 12. During very high wind gusts associated with nearby thunderstorms the pole failed at the lower part of the middle section, bending but not breaking, and causing the houses to pivot upside down inches above the ground.

The first time it happened the PMs were living there tending to eggs in the nests and then after a new pole was installed it happened again late in the season when the colony was no longer living there.

For next year we want a whole new gourd system and a very heavy duty pole. I have looked for commercial grade or industrial strength poles but before I buy anything I'd like to hear about your experiences.

Any recommendations/ suggestions would be appreciated. We are willing do the work and spend what is necessary to make sure the PMs are safe.

Thank you!

Jean
Rosharon, TX

[klcretired]

Hi Jean
Welcome to the pmca Forum, There is a Wealth of Knowledge here for Martin Land Lords. Like you in years past i have had those setups unfortunately they just don't last. Years ago I purchased The Lonestar Goliad House w/ a 2" Square Pole w/ a Cable/Winch setup on it thru the pmca ....here it is Years Later and i have not had to spend any money for repairs as of yet, I am Very Very happy with this system plus it allows you to raise & Lower your Housing to do nest checks and any Maintance that you may need to do, I also Purchased a Lonestar Gourd Rack w/ a 2" Square Pole and Winch/Cable setup, again no Problems with these setups, I am Very very Happy with them and My Martins just love them as well, I also have a Gemni Gourd Rack w/ a 3" Square Pole & Winch/Cable setup , we have alot of High Straightline winds here in Grand Prairie and over the Years these Pole have never Bent and still work like they were brand new...The Square Poles are strong. , Don't know how far you are from me but you are welcome to come by my house and see my setups anytime you like. I'm sure you will hear from other martin Land Lords so you will have a Decision to make, i hope my input helps you on making your Decision.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

One problem with lightduty poles is that too many gourds are often put on them. They are not designed for such heavy loads. The poles that you used were designed for a lightweight house. Not only are too many gourds too heavy for such a pole, but the wind resistance increases with each gourd that is added to the pole. The added weight and added wind resistance are definitely too much in any heavy thunderstorm.

I will not comment on the square pole that you use because I have homemade poles that are extremely strong and will withstand even a hurricane, and have no particular pole experience.

I do urge you to get a pole that is stronger than you think necessary. I too had too many wooden poles that fell over for the exact reasons that were given above. I am happy to see you wanting a strong pole.

I wish you the best of luck.

[DebA]

Hi Jean!
I live in Kansas and we have all kinds of wind. It's windy now.

I had the tri-tel poles for my first four years. I had trouble with the clips breaking so I drilled through for a bolt to hold them up with a wing nut. Then I really strained and struggled to raise the poles and I am not a weakling.

This year I changed to the Trendsetter 12 house. It comes with a 2" square pole with cable and winch system. Love it! How easy it is to raise and lower the house. I also added four gourds under the house. A month or so ago we had 100mph winds during a storm. Crazy. I was fretting. My houses were fine! So I love love love the 2" square pole!

Whatever you get I recommend at least that size of pole. Good for you for getting what is best for the martins!

Deb

[Matt F.]

Welcome to forum Jean!
In addition to the great advice from the others above, the PMCA store has some poles, that are all great examples of strong, safe pole systems.
http://shop.purplemartin.org/Martin_Hou ... -list.aspx

Like mentioned above also, telescoping pole systems are okay, but can definitely make lowering and raising one's housing very labor intensive, and not very enjoyable.

Systems that use either a rope/pulley (like a flagpole), or, a winch and cable system, are definitely the way to go.

A lot of folks here use strong 2" and 3" square poles, aluminum and steel.
The square poles are also helpful in keeping the housing from spinning around, whenever it's being raised or lowered.
Some folks like Emil make their own.
The diameter, and gauge (thickness of the metal) are key things to look for in a pole.

[JWN]

I knew I came to the right place! Thank you all for the suggestions. We will definitely look at the square poles with the pulley systems. This is such a wonderful resource. Many thanks to those of you who manage/maintain this forum.

The pole that came tumbling down!

[klcretired]

JWN,
FYI , nothing has been said but i think that it is very Important about orientation when you raise & Lower Your PM Housing/Gourds. With a Square Pole while Raising & Lowering The orientation remains the same , with a Round Pole you have to Make sure and worry about when you Lower & Raise are the gourds/Housing facing the same direction. I know from my own past experience I had issues with this using the earlier housing on round poles ,I always had a problem each time i lowered & Rasied with the proper orientation (Position or alignment ).
a square Pole eliminates this problem especially if a Martin Land Lord wheather New or Old doesn't think about putting the housing/Gourds Back exactly as they were.

[DebA]

Your picture makes me want to go hug them! They tolerate a lot but probably not that!

Missing my birds,
Deb

[JL Murray]

Best of luck with your new changes next season

[Ron Shaffer]

I've put 12 gourds on these poles for 5 or 6 seasons...with no ill results....but I know I've been very lucky. Thought my luck had run out when a big storm knocked out power in the tri-state area on 6/29/12....but to my surprise, they held on. I still have 2 in my arsenal which I will use for the 2014 season, but they will get only 6 gourds each....

...best of luck this season.

[John Miller]

Welcome to the forum...all the systems folks recommended are great.

I'd like to step up your question a bit and ask the folks who may know for thoughts on making the poles recommended even stronger. These quality units WILL withstand very strong wind, but even then there are occasional failures in very strong straight-line storms.

The manufactuers, both for most of the PMCA poles and CUE, tell me the weakest point is the mounting stake right at ground level. CUE changed their mounting stakes a few years ago to thick aluminum, which one fills with concrete...maybe these are strongest (not sure). PMCA still relies on a steel mounting post (I think) and also can be filled with concrete. (The concrete's intent is to prevent water from rising up in the post and freezing -- not sure it's value in making it stronger.)

Lowering systems when a storm is approaching of course helps, but that's not feasible for public sites.

I'm not asking about deepness of the hole or adding adequate concrete in soft ground -- those are givens to keep the mount from tipping out of the ground, but rather how to make the mounting post as strong as possible, or whether the real storm risk is not the mounting post, but bending of the pole right the top of it. I've seen photos of the latter too.

John M

[Jeff Robinson]

Hi Jean,

Welcome to the PMCA forum. Like others, I too prefer the manufactured 2" and 3" square poles. Between the Lonestar Goliad, Trendsetter, and Gemini systems, I am much more confident in severe storm surviveability, although I still lower each system down to about 8 - 10 feet when I know severe storms are expected.

[Jeff Robinson]

Bumping John's question up. I am also interested in responses to his question.

Welcome to the forum...all the systems folks recommended are great.

I'd like to step up your question a bit and ask the folks who may know for thoughts on making the poles recommended even stronger. These quality units WILL withstand very strong wind, but even then there are occasional failures in very strong straight-line storms.

The manufactuers, both for most of the PMCA poles and CUE, tell me the weakest point is the mounting stake right at ground level. CUE changed their mounting stakes a few years ago to thick aluminum, which one fills with concrete...maybe these are strongest (not sure). PMCA still relies on a steel mounting post (I think) and also can be filled with concrete. (The concrete's intent is to prevent water from rising up in the post and freezing -- not sure it's value in making it stronger.)

Lowering systems when a storm is approaching of course helps, but that's not feasible for public sites.

I'm not asking about deepness of the hole or adding adequate concrete in soft ground -- those are givens to keep the mount from tipping out of the ground, but rather how to make the mounting post as strong as possible, or whether the real storm risk is not the mounting post, but bending of the pole right the top of it. I've seen photos of the latter too.

John M

[KathyF]

JWN - I almost lost the use of my left hand on one of those poles when, during a rain storm, I was trying to get a neighbor's pole lowered. It was 'stuck' and when it finally gave way, it grabbed the muscle tissue under my thumb and pulled it into the opening between the sections as it came crashing down. Fortunately, after 3 weeks of healing and therapy, there was no permanent harm done.

Anyway, with the better 2 & 3" square poles, I do fill mine with concrete.
Another suggestion, as I've seen a few systems where the whole thing - gourds, pole and ground stake, were tipped over and the concrete was still attached to the ground stake. Since the hole was rounded at the bottom, once the ground is saturated, it can 'rock' out of the soil too.
So, my over-engineering hubby shaped the bottom of the hole to look like a 'bell'. Then hammered some rebar into the hole, horizontally forming a square around the ground stake.

I neglected to take pictures, but I've attached a drawn rough picture.

[~Ray~Gingerich]

Welcome to the forum...all the systems folks recommended are great.

I'd like to step up your question a bit and ask the folks who may know for thoughts on making the poles recommended even stronger. These quality units WILL withstand very strong wind, but even then there are occasional failures in very strong straight-line storms.

The manufactuers, both for most of the PMCA poles and CUE, tell me the weakest point is the mounting stake right at ground level. CUE changed their mounting stakes a few years ago to thick aluminum, which one fills with concrete...maybe these are strongest (not sure). PMCA still relies on a steel mounting post (I think) and also can be filled with concrete. (The concrete's intent is to prevent water from rising up in the post and freezing -- not sure it's value in making it stronger.)

Lowering systems when a storm is approaching of course helps, but that's not feasible for public sites.

I'm not asking about deepness of the hole or adding adequate concrete in soft ground -- those are givens to keep the mount from tipping out of the ground, but rather how to make the mounting post as strong as possible, or whether the real storm risk is not the mounting post, but bending of the pole right the top of it. I've seen photos of the latter too.

John M

John, I think the weakest point of a pole is not at ground level but at the top of the ground stake, at least that’s what I gather from looking at the pictures from Steve’s site and a few others where they bent over right at that point. So here is what I’m thinking. Several years ago when I poured concrete and set a ground stake for a AAA gourd rack I also set a 1/8th x2”x6ft piece of angle iron leaving 54”above ground and ½ space around the ground stake. When I put the pole up I clamped the top of the angle iron to the pole right at the rope winder, then (probably not necessary) I used wood wedges at the bottom between the pole and the angle iron to take up some of the slack on the pole. I found this strengthened the rack a good bit, it didn’t sway in the wind nearly as much when compared to another AAA rack I have. I think another way is to place a little pipe stub into the concrete and slip a length of pipe over it, that way it would be removable.

[JL Murray]

I will revisit an idea i have had for several years now about a two piece ground stake with a set of several short but very heavy duty tension springs at the base to allow it to give just a few inches in extremely high winds just as Trees do, And a tree being able to give in extremely high winds save them, so why should that not work on a pole. The springs could be adjusted (tightened down) to only allow the pole to give a little in very high winds such as say 75 mph or over.

Here is a crude drawing of what i have in mind.

[apundt-TX]

Samething happened to me many years back. Look up the AAA-16 rack and get a winch and pulley too.

[John Miller]

JL I think springs would work, but surely beyond my abilities.

Ray,
I did make a brace along the lines of what you suggested last year, extending above the mounting post, and may try a few more. Mine looked more like a human leg brace and I kept thinking of the movie Forest Gump - ha.

Jean, get a good pole no more than 14 feet high, and don't over weight it; you'll be fine.

John M

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Making the poles shorter (14ft should be sufficient, even 12ft should be good in open areas). Reducing the number of gourds reduces the wind resistance, so don't overload the poles. The heavier the load, the easier the poles bend.

Its much better to put up a 2nd pole if you want more housing, and martins may like it much better if the entrances (any type of housing) are farther apart.

The new season is fast approaching, I had a martin last year on this date, I still get excited to see that first martin...have fun this year watching those beautiful birds.

[kehunter]

I have a Tri-Tel pole with a house and 6 gourds, and I can see now that this isn't the best long-term solution. I drilled an extra hole in the middle section which allowed me to lower the upper section by 1 foot this evening. The Martins didn't notice. I have extra holes in the bottom section which would allow me to lower the assembly further, by 1 foot increments.

I think I'll "piggyback" a detachable section of pipe alongside the middle and lower sections of the Tri-Tel as reinforcement against high winds.


Kevin