martins killing eachother

chickadee · Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:32 pm

i have been a active martin landlord for 6 years now and i have never had a martin die at my site let alone by another martin.i always watch my site for hours in the morning. ba ut the one time i left yesterday for 2 hours i came back to see a male poking at something in a entrance hole.I lowered it down to find it was martin wings.this female had her body inside the gourd and both wings on the outside of it.she was turned on her side. her body was still warm but i was to late cause she was dead.and when i opened the gourd i found another adult female inside with feathers in her mouth. the dead bird had 2 good size peck holes in her head and missing feathers and was bloody. i dont no if she got stuck and the other female pecked her to death to move? or their was a fight where she got stuck as she was bludgeoned to death? but it is sad i work so hard to protect these birds and they are killing eachother? so just wondering if anyone has heard of a martin killing another martin at a site?

Don Strickland · Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:59 pm

I found a dead male yesterday on the ground under the house with all the feathers off the back of his head, his neck and a big part of his back had been picked clean. He was bloody also. I assumed it was a Starling although I didn't see the scuffle.
Maybe some of the big time landlords will have an opinion.
Don

starling shooter · Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:30 pm

Don't exampe definately sounds like a starling...

DebA · Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Hi Chickadee,

I posted on the forum about two weeks ago...describing that very same thing. I posted pics with it because I wanted suggestions on remedies of my nest trays in my new house. So don't open the link if you don't want to see that again. Mine were two females in battle over a compartment and I think after the one got stuck the other one took advantage.

Sorry you had this too. It is devastating.

Deb

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25060

jedin · Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:01 pm

Sad for you guys, I am so involved in just hoping I can get a pair to stay in my "improved " set up this year that I can't imagine dealing with fighting and one dying. Sounds so brutal. I also haven't seen an excluder door (a formal one) in person and need to learn more. All our doors are the crescent shaped sreh. They seemed to work well last year in the s&k, and hope they will this year. We appear to have 2 rather lonely bachelors trying to talk a couple of ladies into settling here, but no takers. Now I think we are in waiting mode for the younger females to arrive.

Sort of worried about this year. Seems like it has been odd in many places. Like you guys, want to do the best and worry about our set up causing problems. But it looks like we have the BB, TRES and Barn swallows all set and happy. We had an impressive group of 20 plus in a real formation covering the sky eating at sunset. Lovely. Poor Martin just watching them all as they soared in and overhead. Maybe we can get a run of decent weather days without large storms and see who shows up.

Good luck!

chickadee · Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:46 pm

thanks for the reply's. I am surprised nobody has really heard weather or not martins will kill each other for a gourd? but as I posted this martin was killed inside the gourd wings outside of it blocking nobody from coming or going. the killer was draped inside witch was a female martin with feathers still in her beak from the others head. no starling in this fight. and my yard is starling free controlled around the clock and all crescent holes. not to mention few nights ago to males went in a gourd fighting on the porch at first over a gourd I ran out opened it one had one down with its foot on the others neck. now this female dead blocking the other inside. I am thinking they will and do kill each other. just thought so many landlords on here for years would know weather this to be true or not? or witnessed it and new it was martin vs martin?

RC Moser · Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:12 pm

"i left yesterday for 2 hours " So you didn't really see what happen.

"my yard is starling free controlled around the clock" My yard is also starling free, but that don't mean they don't visit, fly by, or stop and cause havoc.. Starling only takes couple mins. to kill Purple Martin.

I for on have never seen or experience PM's killing each other. Not saying it can't happen, but I don't see they have the tools to kill, soft beaks, no big leg muscles, weak legs. They do have strong wings, but I dought the flapping could kill.. I dought it was the PMs.

You say the female had feathers in her mouth? she was probably trying to get out beings the two was trapped inside the compartment.

Another thing that leads me to believe they can't kill with their beaks What I have observed have hard time breaking dead grass in my yard to make nest and also they have hard time pulling green leaves apart in the tops of trees to cover their eggs. IMO their beaks are designed to catch bugs thin, lite, and wide.

On the other hand Starling are killing machines. Strong pointed beak, strong legs from walking all day looking for bugs in the grass and weeds, and strong wings to get leverage. IMO it only takes one starling blow in the right place to kill any bird they are fighting with. And on top of that they have serial killer instinct and are natural born killers.

I maybe wrong But I don't think it was Your Purple martins, Maybe some others will chime in disputing my opinions based on some 14 years in starling infested area.

chickadee · Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:30 pm

ok true I was not their. but she was on her side stuck with both wings behind her threw the hole. that's how she was killed and from the inside. it don't take csi to tell me that if it was a starling it would be blocked inside the gourd and killed the other female. its hard to explain you would just have had to see the crime seen I guess. lol

chickadee · Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:37 pm

also wanted to point out the female that died was the owner of the gourd. the female found alive was not. the male and female had a nest in their. he is now single trying to find a new mate. that female somehow got her self in a funny was and lodged in the creasant hole. and maybe she was stuck and the female killed her by pecking for her to move. and had no attention of killing her for the gourd.

Louise Chambers · Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:47 pm

I don't think martins kill each other - they do fight, pretty intensely at times, and that can result in accidental wing entrapment, leading to death of one or more birds. But as others mentioned, a martin's beak cannot do the kind of damage that a starling's or house sparrow's beak can do.

Emil Pampell-Tx · Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:58 pm

I have had martins for 40+ years and never saw them kill each other, but wing entrapment happens often to houses and gourds that do not have wing entrapment guards. Most wing entrapment problems can be solved rather easily by attaching entrapment guards.

Don Strickland · Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:36 pm

Well, I am glad to hear these other opinions. My Martins do get into scuffles with one another but it is over in just a few seconds. They usually tie up and as soon as they reach the ground, the fight is over.
I am pretty sure my Male was killed by a Starling, and I suspect the Starling penetrated the skull thus killing it. Their beaks are long, sharp, and strong. Feathers being pulled out wouldn't kill a Martin, In my humble opinion.
Don

cransy · Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:49 pm

In 16 years of having Martins, I have had one martin killed by another Martin fighting in a gourd. I witness the fighting going on in the gourd. It was horrible. Later that day, I checked the gourd and sure enough I had a dead Martin.

DebA · Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:17 pm

So on my thread and pics above...my surviving martin was blocked inside. The Wing entrapped martin looked pecked to her head and it was rainy outside so the house was wet and there was some blood on the outside porch. But that all could have been from her struggle to free herself. Maybe she cut the wing area and that caused the blood. I don't know. But my new Trendsetter came with wing guards so once again not every kind of guard is absolute but sure better than none.

I assume they were fighting going in at night because I was out there through out the day and evening. Didn't watch them all go in. I found her in the 8am hour so she expired overnight.

Deb

RC Moser · Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:09 pm

I have few wing entrapments in crescent entry.. It don't take long for PM to die stuck in the entry IMO . probably less than hour or maybe little more if it's not to hot... As Far as the dead PM in the gourd that was fighting he may of used up too much energy or got suffocated in the fight. I just don't see PM pecking another PM to death. suffocation yes due to they tend to hold on alot. I notice this when Sy tried to get in to occupied compartment in the evening. Hear the fighting and they he can't get out with his head and part of his body hanging out the entry hole. I think the Male PM inside the cavity is holding on to him so he will get the message not to come back.

DebA · Wed May 01, 2013 3:23 am

RC, I hope you are right about a rather quick demise. I have hated the idea that she suffered. Maybe it wasn't all night long at least.
Deb

Dennis D · Wed May 01, 2013 4:44 am

chickadee wrote:thanks for the reply's. I am surprised nobody has really heard weather or not martins will kill each other for a gourd? but as I posted this martin was killed inside the gourd wings outside of it blocking nobody from coming or going. the killer was draped inside witch was a female martin with feathers still in her beak from the others head. no starling in this fight. and my yard is starling free controlled around the clock and all crescent holes. not to mention few nights ago to males went in a gourd fighting on the porch at first over a gourd I ran out opened it one had one down with its foot on the others neck. now this female dead blocking the other inside. I am thinking they will and do kill each other. just thought so many landlords on here for years would know weather this to be true or not? or witnessed it and new it was martin vs martin?

Relax a bit. It's not the martins intention to kill another martin. However, it can happen sometimes when they start fighting over compartments. Have you ever seen two martins fall interlocked to the ground from their housing? That happens too. Normally they do not fight, but it does happen occasionally when fighting over housing. They will settle down - we do the best we can do.

chickadee · Wed May 01, 2013 2:40 pm

cransy I think you may be right. and after doing research on line their is some articles that claim they do and kill each other. I mean why couldn't they? they have not a beak like a starling but few pecks to the head is all it takes. and to top it off today the same gourd was blocked from the outside with martin feathers. a male martin this time and when I looked inside their was another male with feathers in his mouth and the other bird had a place on his head where he was being pecked. I am convinced weather they mean to or not it happens. I just don't no what it is with this gourd if maybe he was messing with another males lady since his is now dead? but I thank everyone for their reply's. I think best to research it and if anyone comes up with something solid please share.