Looking for mentor in Ithaca, NY
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Guest
This is my third year of trying and I need help. Summary: S&K 16 room barn on telescoping pole on dock, 30 ft from Cayuga Lake shore. Neighbors, 1/4 mile away, have lots of purple martins. Tree swallows really want to nest in my PM house. Last year, I put up two single TS houses and got TS in one. They did not stop other TS from wanting to nest in my PM house. Every time a TS would build a nest, I would lower the house and clean the cavity. Maybe the problem was that the TS houses were 50 ft away so this year, I moved them so they are 30 ft away. Last year, I even played the dawn song and had two plastic PM decoys close to the house. I have occasionally had a PM look but no takers. I need help.
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- PM house on dock. I own & created in 2011.
- PM house on dock, condensed.jpg (100.28 KiB) Viewed 5234 times
Last edited by Guest on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Laverne
- Posts: 2216
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:58 pm
- Location: TX/Alvin
- Martin Colony History: Erected 1st house in 1997. Birds were checking it out before Mike got down from the ladder. Six cavities had a little colony 1st year. Grown to 88 cavities all gourds with near 100% occupancy. Most important factor for success is rain = bugs.
I'm sorry no one ever answered your post. Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who could mentor you in Ithica, NY. But, you are welcome to ask all your questions right here on this Forum and all of us will do our best to help you. How's that sound??
I am unfamiliar with Tree Swallows. But, it sounds like you may have them under control. I checked the Scout Report for New York State and found only two reports. Do your neighbors report their returning birds on this site? You said they have lots of purple martins -- do they have birds back this year, already...??
I went back to find this post and bring it back to the top of the list. Please, feel free to join in. We will all try to help...
I am unfamiliar with Tree Swallows. But, it sounds like you may have them under control. I checked the Scout Report for New York State and found only two reports. Do your neighbors report their returning birds on this site? You said they have lots of purple martins -- do they have birds back this year, already...??
I went back to find this post and bring it back to the top of the list. Please, feel free to join in. We will all try to help...
Sincerely,
Laverne
Laverne
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Ryan
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:19 pm
- Location: Eganville, Ontario
- Martin Colony History: Visitors are rare. On the northern edge of the martins range.
If you can get the tree swallows nesting early, and at the 30 foot distance mark, they will defend that Martin house from other tree swallows, like a pair of pit bulls.
It works, but 30 feet is the key.
It works, but 30 feet is the key.
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Doug Martin - PA
- Posts: 1988
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pennsylvania/Fombell
- Martin Colony History: First pair in 2009 after 28 years of trying. 3 pairs 2010, 17 pairs 2011 and 35-45 pairs since. Many additional colonies are now springing up around mine in an area once completely void of Martins. I offer 50 compartments at my site consisting of primarily Excluder II gourds on Gemini racks. Also a wooden T-14. I utilize electric fence type predator guards on the base of the poles. Supplemental feeding is crucial in maintaining my colony. I platform feed throughout the season as needed. My site tends to be a stop over point for additional birds as they migrate further north.
I have had a lot of experience with TS in the past at my home site and at a lake site in PA. They are simply overwhelming at lake sites and you can pretty much throw out all the rules regarding them not nesting within so many feet of each other.
I always had multiple pairs at the lake site within 50 ft of each other with another dozen always battling for more of the small territory.
If you are going to use a Martin house I suggest you keep it closed up or covered with a bag until a few pairs of TS get established. I also suggest using a gourd rack with with gourds that can be easily removed to a location on each side of your Martin housing. Get a couple extra gourds to replace the ones you remove once the TS build a nest and lay eggs. Temporarily lower and close the Martin housing to get them to accept their new location. They are pretty smart little birds you can show them where you put it. Once they find it they will accept it.
You could also just leave all your housing closed until later in the season. Martins will outbattle the TS and will even nest next to them, but it is not always a marriage made in heaven and you need to be prepared to move the TS nest a few yards away.
Interesting true story. I once was late getting the TS gourd up at the lake by a few days. I pulled my car over about 30ft from where the gourd was to hang on a hook. I opened my trunk and took out the gourd. The TS were so excited to see their home from last year they buzzed me chirping away. I lifted the gourd for them to see and the female went right in. While I held it. I carried it over and hung it up with her in it and the male hanging on the entrance. Amazing!!!!
Doug
I always had multiple pairs at the lake site within 50 ft of each other with another dozen always battling for more of the small territory.
If you are going to use a Martin house I suggest you keep it closed up or covered with a bag until a few pairs of TS get established. I also suggest using a gourd rack with with gourds that can be easily removed to a location on each side of your Martin housing. Get a couple extra gourds to replace the ones you remove once the TS build a nest and lay eggs. Temporarily lower and close the Martin housing to get them to accept their new location. They are pretty smart little birds you can show them where you put it. Once they find it they will accept it.
You could also just leave all your housing closed until later in the season. Martins will outbattle the TS and will even nest next to them, but it is not always a marriage made in heaven and you need to be prepared to move the TS nest a few yards away.
Interesting true story. I once was late getting the TS gourd up at the lake by a few days. I pulled my car over about 30ft from where the gourd was to hang on a hook. I opened my trunk and took out the gourd. The TS were so excited to see their home from last year they buzzed me chirping away. I lifted the gourd for them to see and the female went right in. While I held it. I carried it over and hung it up with her in it and the male hanging on the entrance. Amazing!!!!
Doug
Supplemental feeding plays a major role in Western Pennsylvania. Finally got my 1st pair in 2009 after 28 years of effort. The colony has grown quickly to 45 pairs that I care for. Many new colonies have now sprung up around me in the past few years as well. Where there was none.... there is many.
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Guest
Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a mentor. I really appreciate everyone's comments, especially the helpful suggestions from Doug. Cornell (located 5 miles from where I live) has a major program on ornithology. Maybe someone there might see this as a special challenge.
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DornCounty
- Posts: 2169
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:58 pm
- Location: Rural SE Kansas
- Martin Colony History: .
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Trio-Jedi
I don't have real person mentor either, but the folks on here help a ton. IMO better than any one mentor could be.
2017 - Home & Public Colonies - 300 Cavities
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ToyinPA
- Posts: 2227
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:07 pm
- Location: PA/Avis
- Martin Colony History: The 1972 St. Agnes flood wiped out all the Martins in my area. One day, in 1997-98, 5 or 6 Martins landed on the power wires crossing my back yard. I had no house for them. They kept coming back day after day. We got a martin house a few weeks later & they have been coming back every year since. I average 12-15 pair per year.
I'm located about 140 miles south/southwest of you.sailandpower wrote:Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a mentor. I really appreciate everyone's comments, especially the helpful suggestions from Doug. Cornell (located 5 miles from where I live) has a major program on ornithology. Maybe someone there might see this as a special challenge.
Your house looks like it's leaning pretty good....if so try to straighten it if possible. Also it should be pointing so the ends of the house face more east/west. I have 3 of the same houses. I do not see the roof antenias. If you have them put them on. If not find something that will work as a landing perch for the top.
From your photo it looks like you have tree shadow? How close is the closest tree to your martin house? Hawks will hide in trees & swoop down on the martins. So they usually don't like trees too close to their house/nest site.
Have you added any nesting materials to some of the cavities? If not try some dried white pine needles. A handfull in each cavity will do. Also smear a little mud on the outside of the entrances. Martins may take to it if they think it's been used before.
I see by your photo you have a water slide right under the house. That may be too close to get a colony started. Altho once started they may not mind it. It all depends on the martins.
As for the Tree Swallows. My small colony either ignores them or chases them away, but if the TS are too agressive the martins may decide not to stay. I'd close all but 6 of the rooms on one side until you see martins taking interest.
You may not get any martins for awhile if your neighbors have room left in their martin houses. Keep trying. It can take years for martins to accept a location. As Doug said...a few gourds may help.
Toy in PA
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Guest
I really appreciate all of this help! Some comments and questions:
Comments
1. I will set the pole vertical again and will orient the house so the ends point east-west. I do not have a roof antenna but I will do some homework and put one up. This is a telescoping aluminum pole that works great. In prior years, I frequently had to raise and lower the PM house to keep the TS out.
2. The picture was taken in the late afternoon. The shadow is from the house. However, there are lots of trees on the shore. The closest big tree is 100 ft away.
3. I will add nesting materials and add mud to the outside of the entrances. Good idea.
4. The water slide is not used until July when the lake warms up. Thus, the occasional slide use (1 weekend/month when the grand children visit) occurs after the time PMs are looking for a house.
5. The closest neighbors with PMs are ~1/4 mile away. There are about 10 PM houses that get PMs every year.
Questions
1. Toy suggests I close all but 6 of the rooms on one side until I see PM taking interest. Be more specific. Each side has 6 houses and the ends have 4 houses. What and how many should I close?
2. I do not understand the gourd suggestion. Please expand.
I was happy that Dave lives so close. I am hoping that Dan can visit. I will post our actions and further questions. I really appreciate everyone's help.
Don
Comments
1. I will set the pole vertical again and will orient the house so the ends point east-west. I do not have a roof antenna but I will do some homework and put one up. This is a telescoping aluminum pole that works great. In prior years, I frequently had to raise and lower the PM house to keep the TS out.
2. The picture was taken in the late afternoon. The shadow is from the house. However, there are lots of trees on the shore. The closest big tree is 100 ft away.
3. I will add nesting materials and add mud to the outside of the entrances. Good idea.
4. The water slide is not used until July when the lake warms up. Thus, the occasional slide use (1 weekend/month when the grand children visit) occurs after the time PMs are looking for a house.
5. The closest neighbors with PMs are ~1/4 mile away. There are about 10 PM houses that get PMs every year.
Questions
1. Toy suggests I close all but 6 of the rooms on one side until I see PM taking interest. Be more specific. Each side has 6 houses and the ends have 4 houses. What and how many should I close?
2. I do not understand the gourd suggestion. Please expand.
I was happy that Dave lives so close. I am hoping that Dan can visit. I will post our actions and further questions. I really appreciate everyone's help.
Don
Paint the whole house white, pole and all . How are you going to do nest checks.
Sorry I am not familiar with the plastic houses
and didn't realize they have a telescopic pole my mistake, obviously you wouldn't want to paint the pole. However they do have paint for plastic. Good Luck with getting some birds.
Ed
Sorry I am not familiar with the plastic houses
and didn't realize they have a telescopic pole my mistake, obviously you wouldn't want to paint the pole. However they do have paint for plastic. Good Luck with getting some birds. Ed
Last edited by Ed Pace on Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ToyinPA
- Posts: 2227
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:07 pm
- Location: PA/Avis
- Martin Colony History: The 1972 St. Agnes flood wiped out all the Martins in my area. One day, in 1997-98, 5 or 6 Martins landed on the power wires crossing my back yard. I had no house for them. They kept coming back day after day. We got a martin house a few weeks later & they have been coming back every year since. I average 12-15 pair per year.
Don:sailandpower wrote:I really appreciate all of this help! Some comments and questions:
Comments
1. I will set the pole vertical again and will orient the house so the ends point east-west. I do not have a roof antenna but I will do some homework and put one up. This is a telescoping aluminum pole that works great. In prior years, I frequently had to raise and lower the PM house to keep the TS out.
2. The picture was taken in the late afternoon. The shadow is from the house. However, there are lots of trees on the shore. The closest big tree is 100 ft away.
3. I will add nesting materials and add mud to the outside of the entrances. Good idea.
4. The water slide is not used until July when the lake warms up. Thus, the occasional slide use (1 weekend/month when the grand children visit) occurs after the time PMs are looking for a house.
5. The closest neighbors with PMs are ~1/4 mile away. There are about 10 PM houses that get PMs every year.
Questions
1. Toy suggests I close all but 6 of the rooms on one side until I see PM taking interest. Be more specific. Each side has 6 houses and the ends have 4 houses. What and how many should I close?
2. I do not understand the gourd suggestion. Please expand.
I was happy that Dave lives so close. I am hoping that Dan can visit. I will post our actions and further questions. I really appreciate everyone's help.
Don
In reply to your comments...
1. 2 antenia should have come with the house. If you don't have them you can order them from the S&K website. I attached a photo showing the martins sitting on the antenia.
2. Tree distance is OK.
3. Just smear a little around the entrance. Makes it look used to the martins.
4. This should be OK.
5. This could help you. YOU may get their overflow.
In reply to your questions:
1. Since you are having issues with the Tree Swallows. I would close the rooms you can't see or have access to until the martins show up.
2. S&K has a mount kit so you can mount gourds to the underside of the house.
Ed suggested you paint the house & pole white. Sorry but that is not necessary. I have 3 of the same houses. Not only can't you paint a plastic house, you can't paint a telescoping pole. It would end up being a big mess of peeling paint.
I will suggest if you do get a colony you consider changing to say all gourds or a different style in the future. The house you have & how you have it attached to your dock does not allow for proper nest checks, as it looks like you willnot have access to all sides easily.
Toy in PA
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Guest
Toy and my other on-line mentors:
Thanks for your help:
Comments:
1. I will get the antenna.
Questions:
1. I need more info on the gourds. If I understand correctly: (1) Doug suggests adding gourds with the objective of getting TS to nest in the gourds and then relocating the TS nesting gourds to the existing post that is 30 ft away from the PM house; (2) Toy suggests adding gourds with the objective of getting TS to nest in the gourds. Based on prior years, if I put up gourds, the TS will quickly build a nest in the gourds. What are your thoughts?
2. Based on comments, it appears that PMs like gourds far more than houses. If that is true, maybe it makes sense to replace my S&K house with gourds?
3. My current plan is to not put up my PM house until the Scout Report reports the sub-adults are arriving in my area. Agree?
4. Doug suggested supplemental feeding. What do you suggest?
Thanks again.
Thanks for your help:
Comments:
1. I will get the antenna.
Questions:
1. I need more info on the gourds. If I understand correctly: (1) Doug suggests adding gourds with the objective of getting TS to nest in the gourds and then relocating the TS nesting gourds to the existing post that is 30 ft away from the PM house; (2) Toy suggests adding gourds with the objective of getting TS to nest in the gourds. Based on prior years, if I put up gourds, the TS will quickly build a nest in the gourds. What are your thoughts?
2. Based on comments, it appears that PMs like gourds far more than houses. If that is true, maybe it makes sense to replace my S&K house with gourds?
3. My current plan is to not put up my PM house until the Scout Report reports the sub-adults are arriving in my area. Agree?
4. Doug suggested supplemental feeding. What do you suggest?
Thanks again.
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ToyinPA
- Posts: 2227
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:07 pm
- Location: PA/Avis
- Martin Colony History: The 1972 St. Agnes flood wiped out all the Martins in my area. One day, in 1997-98, 5 or 6 Martins landed on the power wires crossing my back yard. I had no house for them. They kept coming back day after day. We got a martin house a few weeks later & they have been coming back every year since. I average 12-15 pair per year.
Don:
I do not use gourds, so I can't really offer you info on them. I do know that my PM's chase off TS & won't allow them to nest in my houses. However if you have allot of TS it would be best if you could get them to nest in houses or gourds away from your PM house.
I would not wait to put your PM house up. You never know when you may get returning subbies, who are now adults, looking for a house. You will need to keep the sparrows & TS out. If you see them nest building then toss the nest.
Supplemental feeding takes time. Martins must be hungry & not able to find food to take food from you. 3 dyas of cold/wet/windy weather does not usually allow them to find food. By the 3rd day they should be hungry enough to accept suplemental food. It took me 3 years to get mine to take flipped crickets & they won't touch eggs, flipped or otherwise. You just need to keep trying until you get one martin that is hungry enough to make an attempt & the rest will follow. Once they do you will find the returning matins from previous years remember & will accept food from you.
Toy in PA
I do not use gourds, so I can't really offer you info on them. I do know that my PM's chase off TS & won't allow them to nest in my houses. However if you have allot of TS it would be best if you could get them to nest in houses or gourds away from your PM house.
I would not wait to put your PM house up. You never know when you may get returning subbies, who are now adults, looking for a house. You will need to keep the sparrows & TS out. If you see them nest building then toss the nest.
Supplemental feeding takes time. Martins must be hungry & not able to find food to take food from you. 3 dyas of cold/wet/windy weather does not usually allow them to find food. By the 3rd day they should be hungry enough to accept suplemental food. It took me 3 years to get mine to take flipped crickets & they won't touch eggs, flipped or otherwise. You just need to keep trying until you get one martin that is hungry enough to make an attempt & the rest will follow. Once they do you will find the returning matins from previous years remember & will accept food from you.
Toy in PA
Sail&Power,
I’m surprised all the “experienced landlords” seem to be afraid to state the obvious to you. I’m really a nice person but sometimes you just have to tell it like it is. I think your site has about a 95% chance of not attracting martins now as it is, but I’ll tell you how to turn that around to a 95% chance of attracting martins…if you want me to.
Whose being nice, the people who won’t tell you how to do it right (for fear of hurting your feelings) or the person who just sucks it up and tells you what is wrong and how to fix it….even if it might offend someone??
Should I?
Respectfully & Sincerely,
ajh
I’m surprised all the “experienced landlords” seem to be afraid to state the obvious to you. I’m really a nice person but sometimes you just have to tell it like it is. I think your site has about a 95% chance of not attracting martins now as it is, but I’ll tell you how to turn that around to a 95% chance of attracting martins…if you want me to.
Whose being nice, the people who won’t tell you how to do it right (for fear of hurting your feelings) or the person who just sucks it up and tells you what is wrong and how to fix it….even if it might offend someone??
Should I?
Respectfully & Sincerely,
ajh
Of course the most important factor is location. From your photo it appears that your site is open enough. You just can't attract martins to a wooded site. If you site is too tree encroached, you should get permission to put up your martin rig at a park or a school or golf course or some wide open area.
Also looking at your photo you seem to have purchased very good quality things (nice deck and slide, awesome boat and boat house) but not the martin house. I think that house is the cheapest commercial house available on the market. I see them all over the place and have never ever seen a martin on them except in the company videos of the manufacturer. (said company does sell some very good quality items, I just don’t think that house is acceptable) Actually the only type of house that I see martins really using regularly are the wooden T-14 style houses.
OK, here we go with my advice (of course this is my opinion and I hope you will respect it). I wish someone had told me years ago to do this right away. Remove that current setup and get a pole that has a rope & pulley or cable & pulley system for raising and lowering. Here comes the MAGIC BULLET, buy some troyer horizontal gourds with the wdc II tunnels and porches. Not only are these gourds loved by martins but sparrows don’t like them (too big for them to fill up with nesting material). Starlings would love them except they can’t get in. Now you’ve just overcome the 2 biggest problems that stop martin colonies from forming. If tree swallows show interest that’s probably a good thing, because if they like your site so will martins. Just let them pick a gourd and start their nest (I always wait for the first egg) then lower the rack and hang that one gourd on a separate pole and put your martin gourds back up. Slowly move that TS gourd about 30 feet away.
That’s it! If you do this, I’ll bet you a steak dinner that sometime between now and the next couple of martin seasons that you’ll have your own colony. Enjoy!
Also looking at your photo you seem to have purchased very good quality things (nice deck and slide, awesome boat and boat house) but not the martin house. I think that house is the cheapest commercial house available on the market. I see them all over the place and have never ever seen a martin on them except in the company videos of the manufacturer. (said company does sell some very good quality items, I just don’t think that house is acceptable) Actually the only type of house that I see martins really using regularly are the wooden T-14 style houses.
OK, here we go with my advice (of course this is my opinion and I hope you will respect it). I wish someone had told me years ago to do this right away. Remove that current setup and get a pole that has a rope & pulley or cable & pulley system for raising and lowering. Here comes the MAGIC BULLET, buy some troyer horizontal gourds with the wdc II tunnels and porches. Not only are these gourds loved by martins but sparrows don’t like them (too big for them to fill up with nesting material). Starlings would love them except they can’t get in. Now you’ve just overcome the 2 biggest problems that stop martin colonies from forming. If tree swallows show interest that’s probably a good thing, because if they like your site so will martins. Just let them pick a gourd and start their nest (I always wait for the first egg) then lower the rack and hang that one gourd on a separate pole and put your martin gourds back up. Slowly move that TS gourd about 30 feet away.
That’s it! If you do this, I’ll bet you a steak dinner that sometime between now and the next couple of martin seasons that you’ll have your own colony. Enjoy!
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Guest
AJH strongly states the "magic bullet" is that I should replace m inexpensive S&K plastic PM house with Troyer horizontal gourds. I did some Internet searches and did not see a lot of information on these gourds. My questions to the community:
1. Are the Troyer gourds that successful? One site said they were too slippery inside and should always be put up with nesting material included.
2. Are the S&K barns not a good option? One of the reasons I chose this barn is that 1/4 mile away, a community of 9 lake properties have many of these houses and they all have PMs.
Note that my pole is an aluminum collapsible that permits me to easily raise and lower the house.
I am an engineer try to make decisions on objective evidence. I will replace, without hesitation, my S&K house with the Troyer gourds...if the evidence supports this. Thanks in advance for everyone's thoughts.
1. Are the Troyer gourds that successful? One site said they were too slippery inside and should always be put up with nesting material included.
2. Are the S&K barns not a good option? One of the reasons I chose this barn is that 1/4 mile away, a community of 9 lake properties have many of these houses and they all have PMs.
Note that my pole is an aluminum collapsible that permits me to easily raise and lower the house.
I am an engineer try to make decisions on objective evidence. I will replace, without hesitation, my S&K house with the Troyer gourds...if the evidence supports this. Thanks in advance for everyone's thoughts.
Troyers horizontals now come with a nice black rubber traction strip that goes all the way down from the opening to the floor. (in their early years they were slippery) I do still take my leatherman and scratch up the bottom of the gourd for better traction. Once they get muddy and dirty from the birds they are just like naturals. The guy I helped last year did not do this at all. He actually forgot to take out some paper/plastic adds that the seller stuffed into one of them. That was indeed the gourd that one of his 2 pair of martins chose. 
My telescopic pole (exactly the same as yours) has been in the back garage for years now. You would not want to try and install a rack of gourds on one of them. I suppose you could rig up a few but there is no comparison to the pully system.
My telescopic pole (exactly the same as yours) has been in the back garage for years now. You would not want to try and install a rack of gourds on one of them. I suppose you could rig up a few but there is no comparison to the pully system.