plastic gourd problems in Minnesota

[Kelly Applegate~MN]

I have had trouble in previous years with plastic gourds becoming wet, nasty, and foul in the final days before the young fledge. This problem is so extreme that it effects the condition of flight feathers on the fledglings to the point of not being able to fly. Fecal matter builds up in the tunnel, combined with condensation on the inside of the gourd, and the heat from the young creates a putrid sauna that will turn your stomach.

The first experimental configuration were checked today. They are 16 troyer tunneled gourds with two 1/2" elbows screwed into the back. The vents were opened up at about 15 days old, at which point the nests were clean and dry. I was observing the gourds from a distance with binoculars and noticed the entrance holes were pretty nasty. So, I began lowering the rack and noticed a foul stench. It appears the two 1/2" vents did nothing to alleviate the problem. Some of the young began to jump into the grass. Normally, they would be able to fly, but their wings and tail were caked with fecal matter. So, I turned on the garden hose and washed several young and placed them into unused, dry gourds while I cleaned out the nasty nests. Two of the young plopped into the lake and were swimming towards the center. Hopefully they will clean themselves off, dry out and be in the air tomorrow.

At this same site I have some Super gourds with tunnel entrances and had similiar nasty nests in many of those. But the feathers were not as bad and I think they will fledge just fine.

Tomorrow I will check my other experimental configurations which are: one 3/4" elbow in the back with two 1/2" elbows in the neck of the gourd, and the other type is two 1/2" elbows in the back and two 1/2" elbows in the neck of the gourd. Hopefully they fare better.

Is it just Minnesota that experiences this? Is this a problem for anyone else? Here in MN we are racking our brains trying to figure out why this is happening.

It has been incredibly humid and rainy lately which doesn't help, but the young in the "houses" are doing just fine compared to the plastic gourds.

[Tim Mangan-Kansas]

Kelly:

If I am not mistaken, isn't MN and other northern states having one of the hottest summers with high humidity that you have had in many years. Your nestlings and nests look almost normal to landlords from the south who deal with the high temps and humidity during the later days before the nestlings fledge. If you have any blowing rain that enters the nests, it just makes it worse. The wet nests is also a magnet for mites. I never had a nestling unable to fledge due to a buildup of fecal matter or other matter on its wings. Hopefully all of your nestlings will go on to fledge.

Tim

[Scott D.- La]

I had this issue in 2007 and it can be fixed with venting. The vents need to located in the optimum spot, which is top dead center. I accomplished this by using 3/4 male adapter's and 1/1/2 pvc cap's. You can search my post's and find the pic's I have in the data base or I can email you some to your email address. The Troyer's can be done in the same fashion, top dead center of the nesting chamber. Send me your email if you need more pic's.

[Chriscreole]

I drilled 1/2 inch holes in the bottom of my gourds in case of rain getting in and all the gourds haved remained very dry, the mud dams that were built by the martins were hard as a rock dry too. these gourds came with five 1/8 inch drain holes but seems the bigger ones worked better. I did have a few gourds with no nest material that had eggs and the eggs did not fall through the bigger holes.

[bbillyc]

That problem is caused by not enough ventilation. I had Troyer Horizontals which became foul, damp like a sauna, and the hatchlings were not healthy. They had deformed feathers and drooping tails and had much difficulty flying. I placed two 1/2" PVC elbows at the top so that the humidity from the birds breathing inside didn't condensate on the inside. It would drip down the walls and into the nest material turning it into a quagmire of decaying nest material and poop. Really horrible. With the vents on now the nest and gourde are dry as a bone and the birds are very healthy. Drill a 3/4" hole high on the back but low enough to keep the elbow pointed just below vertical to prevent water from getting in. Glue on with epoxy. Some people put a screen over the hole on the PVC but I never did and the venting now keeps the house cool and dry.

[bbillyc]

I must add that the horizontals leak at the seam where the tunnel entrance attaches. I sealed mine with some white silicone including the little pins that hold them in. Also at the top where the rod or bolt goes through to hang them need to be sealed as well otherwise water just runs in and adds to the problem.

I am convinced, because my other wood (gourdes are hung below wooden house) units are very well ventilated and remain very dry and the fledglings that exit them are very very healthy when compared to the ones who fledge from the unventilated gourdes.

If you're still having the problem I would suggest more nest changes to reduce the dampness and bacteria growth which is causing the smell and unhealthy birds.

[John Miller]

Kelly

You could try adding some larger PVC elbo vents to the lids next year, if not right up on top of the gourds.

What are you using for pre-nest material? A generous bed of white pine should drain well. Actually, you probably do nest changes for blow flies..but just grasping at straws here. Hope you figure it out.

John M

[Virgil McCoy]

You must have a bad leak from the top or the gourd is tilted allowing moisture to flow into it. I purchased 8 Troyer Horizontals this season and just did a nest change after three days of rain thinking the nest would be soaked but much to my surprise it was "BONE DRY" ! I think your leak is coming from the very top where the attatchment rod slides thorugh the gourd. I made a tight fit before installation worried about the very thing that has happened to you. My horizontals are not vented yet and I do agree with the rest of those who suggest they be especially after such a hot and dry spring summer here in the south. I don't think you would have that much moisture in just one type of gourd from the humidity. I have three type of pvc gourds and the other two are vented as where my Troyer is the only one not. I have equal amouts of moisture in all nesting gourds and I do nest replacements once a week.

[Keith]

Kelly,
It seems that this problem can happen in different areas of the country when there is not adequate venting in the gourds. Apparently there are design defects in almost all gourd designs, otherwise we as landlords would not have to modify. We really should not have to be doing these modifications. The Bo-11 is the only gourd to my knowledge that addresses this problem. It has a designed vent cap as well as air flow between the double walls. I like the excluder gourd sold by the PMCA but again the vents have to be added. Its very important to put venting in the natural gourds as well. In the past I have had this problem that you have experienced in non-vented wood housing.
Keith

[trank]

Kelly, I used to have the same problem with my THG's until I added (2)3/4" street elbows to each gourd. I keep them capped until the weather warms or nestlings are about 15 days old. I also loosely stuff a small piece of plastic mesh from a filter into the vent opening to keep any bees from entering, so far so good.

Tom

[John Balga]

Hi Kelly,
Lots of moisture for sure from what I can see in your pics! I'd probably be changing some of them out asap to alleviate the problem from what appears to be a long build up of manure in the gourd. This occurs only in some housing but I take it that the gourds are more noticeable. If the martins are leaving with their young ones for the day and returning at night a quick change out could help your situation Kelly. I still like the gourds but if they would only come with removable trays it would make life so much easier for the martins and landlords. Venting seems to increase air flow, but high humidity, extreme temps. and wet panting martins are a difficult situation for any housing. Andy Troyer once indicated that we should all be practicing nest changes when housing allows for it- ICM as he called it: Intensive Care Management. It alleviates ectoparasites, and manure conditions. Hope this helps...

[Scott D.- La]

Virgil is correct, rain can enter at the hanging rod and is a problem I have brought up before. The hanging hole need's to be isolated from the gourd interior and molded in one piece. I use rubber washer's to help stop the water, but the design need's to be changed along with several other improvements.

[blanchar40]

Scott is correct. All the venting in the world will not fix your water problem - A 3/8 rod or bolt w/lots of Lexal around opening keeps it from leaking. Also, on real stormy day wind can force water under the collar and it needs to be sealed. There needs to be a way to isolate the hanging rod or wire from the inside. It is hard to seal if you use wire to hang the troyer horizontal because gourd movement breaks the seal. A rubber gasket or grommet like Scott suggested would be worth checking out. I love the both Troyer gourds & will be converting all my BO11. I wouldn't go w/the horizontal until you solve the water problem.

[Kelly Applegate~MN]

Attached are some more pictures of different configurations with venting on the plastic horizontal gourds with tunnels. I've been making notes on feather condition, condition of the nest, and presence of moisture on the walls of the gourd. I noted that all of the tunneled gourds had feces built up in the tunnel. A couple of landlords here in MN think it's because the young cannot turn around in the tunnel to poop out the front door, or let the parents grab the fecal sac after they given the young an insect. Whats interesting is that this problem also happened in supergourds that have a tunnel attached to the front. Maybe the tunnels need to be wider?

It appears that all of the venting helped keep the nest drier. However, the vents did nothing to alleviate the fecal build-up in the tunnel. All of the young had fecal matter on their underside to varying degrees from traveling back and forth through the tunnels. Some had clean wings and tail, others needed to be washed and dried in order to fly. I guess this could be effected by the level of good housekeeping by the parents (fecal sac removal).

It's true that we have had warmer, more humid weather in the past couple weeks. But shouldn't all of our housing be able to perform equally well in these conditions? It seemed the housing without tunneled entrances produced cleaner nests, and cleaner birds ready to fledge without problems.

The gourds that remained the cleanest were those which have an internal porches. I believe the internal porch allows the young to poop out the front, or turn around and let the parents grab the fecal sac and carry it away.

I'm curious to hear other opinions on tunneled entrances.

[DAVE]

Naturial Gourds don't sweat. They are a little more work to set up but if done right they have little or no maintance, out side of cleaning and soking in bleach water(10 percent).
Dave

[Scott D.- La]

Most nest at fledge time are indeed.......... filthy. I have never seen a fledge so covered in poop, it could not fly. I have not experienced this problem your having in my TH, filthy yes, but not to the point it affected my fledges. Get the water entry problem taken care of and see how it goes next year is about all I know to say.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Kelly, a good way to test a gourd is to use a water sprinkler. First, put about 2 or 3 paper towels into the gourd, then close the access lid. Now get a sprinler (simulating rain), and sprinkle it from all sides, the top, etc and use about the amount of water pressure that a hard rain would produce. Then wait about 15 min for the water to drain, then open the access lid on the gourd and check the interior....it should be bone dry!

If its not dry, you need to find out where its leaking and fix the problem. Its good to check new setups (gourds and houses) in the same manner. This will give you a chance to fix any leaks before the season starts.

On your gourds, you may have a condensation problem, but you may also have leaks. The combined two would certainly cause problems.

[Louise Chambers]

I would suggest increasing the number of drain holes, too—more ventilation will help on its own, but will be even more effective if the number and size of drain holes are increased.

The only time(s) I have seen nestlings with feathers in bad condition, caked with droppings, was in a gourd that had all its drain holes plugged with wet nest debris, and in 2008, a drought year, when many young were not getting enough to eat. The poop-caked feathers may have been the result of bad nest conditions, but it was bone dry in those nests that year.

Keeping moisture out (rain) is certainly an important step too. But we can't change humidity, so adding vents and increasing drainage, for better air circulation, should all be helpful.

[KathyF]

*bump*
Hi Kelly,
I've been having similar problems - older nestlings, wings & tail feathers messy, can't fly, washed them and cleaned out nests.
I was wondering how your experiments turned out? Any updates?

[Kelly Applegate~MN]

Hi Kathy,

Sorry for the delayed response. We determined that it's a combination of the narrow tunnel and reverse condensation in the gourd. The tunnels are too narrow to allow the young to turn around and poop out the front door. Normally, when a parent feeds them an insect, the young turn around and poop out a fecal sac which the parent grabs and hauls away. In the case of the tunnels, the young are crammed into the tunnel and struggle to turn around....the fecal sac breaks open on the tunnel wall. The solution was to cut off the entire front of the gourd and make a porch with open sides. I'll try to take a pic and post it later. Since we did that there has been no problems with fecal build-up. The second part of the problem is the reverse condensation which happens from heated nests cooling rapidly in the evenings. Condensation will form INSIDE the gourd and run down the gourd walls soaking the nests, and amplifying the fecal build-up problem. The solution was to put two pvc vents at the back and two near the front of the gourd. That seems to help keep the gourd ventilated enough.