Question about gourds

[Guest]

Hi folks, I'm wanting to put a gourd rack, but I'm wondering about which gourds I should go with. The reason I'm asking is that I live in a subdivision, where there's not a whole lot of room between houses. That said, I know it's not ideal conditions, but I think I have enough room to put up a rack. My back yard backs up to an overgrown pasture, which has a number of hawks, and an occasional eagle flyover, so I'm wondering what gourds would provide the best protection while allowing easy entry and exit for the martins.

I know, I'm asking for the world here by looking for a setup that will fit all requirements. First off I was thinking about going with the deluxe gourd rack with Super gourds with crescent entrances. My plans would be to add the owl guards. But I was wondering if there is a different gourd that would be better suited for my conditions.

I'm probably overthinking this as I seem to be doing this a lot lately with everything. But, given the cost of a gourd/rack system, I'd hate to get a system that makes no sense in my situation.

Any and all suggestions will be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Bert

BTW> Last year I had a S&K house put up late in the season and had a pair that hatched 6 eggs. A few days after they hatched, a hawk captured the famale, and the male couldn't keep up.

[Joe Zorn]

Bert,
You and I only live about 30 miles apart. So we share the same conditions.

Lots of marshland surrounding us with every kind of predator you can imagine. There are any number of predator protections available for just about any kind of gourds/racks made.

I can't recommend a gourd rack that would benefit you best. I believe it's a matter of asthetics. What pleases you?

But the gourd type I can recommend hands down. The double walled BO-9 and BO-11. The subtrophic heat that we get must be ventilated from the gourds once June gets here. Not just the heat, but the normally +85% humidity kills nestlings if it's not ventilated from the nest chambers.

These two gourds have the advantage of the double walls and the natural top vents if you install the caps on top. These gourds have tunnels and porch accessories for predator protection, as well.

BO-9 OR BO-11? YOUR CHOICE. Do you like very large gourds or simply average to large? 9" or 11"?

Another thing I like about these gourds is that they're made to swivel in any desired direction. Just hang it and turn it as you wish. You do not have to plan how to attach the hanging system.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

oops!

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

The BO11 gourd has a black liner, and good venting. The BO9 gourd does NOT have the black liner...

I prefer a tunnel on both of these for owl protection, and the martins do like the tunnel. The latest tunnels for these have a lip on the clinger entrance that is designed to stop wing entrapment.

[Bill Pec]

Bert,

I agree with Joe and Emil. The only thing I would add to their comments is that the tunnels and venting caps are not part of the basic Bo-9 or Bo-11 gourds when ordering. You must order them as separate accessaries and attach them to the gourd. They are easy to attach and well worth it because they greatly enhance the venting capacity and protective capacity of the gourds. The difference between the Bo-9 and Bo-11 is size. The Bo-11 being larger.
I have no direct knowledge of gourd racks but I have seen a lot of good comments written about the Gemini Gourd Racks on this Forum.
Enjoy the passion,
Bill

[Steve Kroenke]

Hey Bert,

There are a number of great commercial plastic gourds to consider and some of these will fit perfectly on a PMCA Deluxe type gourd rack. I have a bunch of Deluxe racks and Super Gourds, Troyer Gourds and Excluder Gourds are just right for this rack.

The Super Gourd, Troyer Horizontal and Vertical Gourds and Excluder Gourd are made of excellent quality plastic and are durable. I have some Super Gourds I bought from the PMCA back in the 90s and those gourds are still in great shape. I believe they are almost indestructible! You want your plastic gourds to last MANY years!

All these gourd designs are opaque. That is, they are not translucent and do not allow sunlight to penetrate the gourd walls and possibly heat up the interior. It is best not to use translucent gourds, particularly in the Deep South. Also translucent gourds may deteriorate more rapidly due to UV rays passing through the plastic. I have looked at translucent gourds and held them up to the sun. I could see my hand through the translucent plastic.

These gourds are also made in America and offered through the PMCA. I often purchase martin products from the PMCA since this helps fund the PMCA’s martin research, education and conservation programs, including providing this wonderful Forum for our enjoyment.

It is easy to vent the Troyer Gourds by drilling vent holes in canopies under the upper neck for the Vertical and upper back for the Horizontal. It takes about a minute or two per gourd with an electric drill; not a problem at all. The Super Gourd and Excluder Gourd can be vented with PVC elbows in the upper neck and it is not too difficult to do. Many folks who use these gourds have done this. I have also vented many of my Troyer Horizontals with PVC elbows.

Another feature of these gourds I like is that they are a single piece gourd. You don’t have to assemble two parts together and create a seam that may allow water intrusion inside the gourd. Also these gourds will not fall apart should a holding screw for two gourd halves fail.

The Troyer Vertical comes with a tunnel/porch that is easily attached to an outer collar. The Troyer Horizontal already has a tunneled entrance area but you can extend this with an add-on tunnel/porch. I don’t use tunnels on my Super Gourds and Excluder Gourds and tunnels are not necessary for these gourds. But you can modify the gourds if you want to add tunnels.

All these gourds have either round holes or srehs; it is your choice.

For 2010 here are the martin occupancy level stats for my Super Gourds, Troyer Gourds and Excluder Gourds:

Troyer Vertical Gourds; 12 erected; 12 occupied; occupancy level 100%

Troyer Horizontal Gourds; 178 erected; 159 occupied; occupancy level 89%

Excluder Gourds with inside/outside porches; 36 erected; 36 occupied; occupancy level 100%

Super Gourds; 81 erected; 75 occupied; occupancy level 93%

As you can see, all these gourd designs have done well in my martin colony in northwest Louisiana. For 2011 I have increased the number of Troyer Verticals to 40.

So if you are looking for a great gourd rack and quality plastic gourds to go with it, then you may want to consider a PMCA Deluxe rack with 12 Super Gourds, Troyer Gourds or Excluder Gourds. You can even have a combination of designs and I have Deluxe racks with Troyer Horizontals and Super Gourds/Excluder Gourds. That is, have both horizontal and vertical styles on one rack to give martins a choice and provide some diversity.

Good luck with your martin colony in 2011.

Steve

[jldoll]

Hi Bert
I purchased my first gourd rack last year so as a first time buyer maby I can give you my thoughts.

I went with the deluxe gourd rack system and it is a very good choice. I went with the winch and am very pleased with it.

I got 24 excluder gourds with cresent entrances and owl guards.

The thing I would change about my gourd choice is.
I have learned from good advice [thanks Steve]

I would have 12 excluder gourds and 12 troyer gourds. The horizontal or the vertical troyer gourd is your choice. But I would lean towards the vertical with the tunnel and starling resistent entrances. But this is my personal choice

Bottom line is I would keep the S&k house and add two differant types of gourds perhaps the differant types of housing will be more attractive for the Martins.

Dose the S&K have 6"x 6" or 6" X 12" cavities. Just thinking about how you lost the female martin last year to a hawk. If you have 6X6 nest cavities I would enlarge them to 6X12
Good luck Jerry

[Joe Zorn]

Steve, I agree with you about the good that the PCMA has done for the martins and the hobby. And I encourage supporting them wholeheartedly.

But Bert's question was about the gourds. THE BO's mention are revolutionary in design.

Since my post was the first to reccommend the BO9 and BO11 gourds, let me level the table with some of the facts about them. Nearly everything that you mentioned about other gourds are true of these BO'S. In most cases, the BO's go beyond those basic essentials.

The BO9 and BO11 gourds are also opaque. I think every gourd that S&K has made in the past three or four years are opaque, not translucent. Also, the black inner gourd takes care of any light intrusion, even if they were not opaque.

These gourds are made in the good old USA. Missouri.

You don't have to drill any holes to vent them. No PVC elbows need to be purchased or installed. And the double wall system out performs the drilled holes 10 to 1 in drafting heat up and out when the caps are used properly on top.

The two part gourds have a tongue-in-groove design, so when you put the gourds together, there is no more water entry than what you'd get from water entering at the top of most gourds at the hangers. The added protection here, again, is the gourd-in-a-gourd design. Even if water could get in, it would simply accumulate on the outside of the black inner shell and roll to the bottom drains (already there. .. no drilling).

The gourds are not going to fall apart with a loose holding screw. There are about 8 of them around the gourd, and it takes a bit of muscle to get them out again. If a person ever assembles one, they have confidence that they are not going to come apart.

They come with a number of different entrances. The buyer specifys which they want when they make the purchase.

They are available in a number of different commercial store locations.

I and others here have already talked about tunnels. They are accessories and must be purchased separately. The gourds do not need them. Mine does not have them. About 75% of my equipment does not offer tunnels to the birds. Only my oldest wooden house,with 6 x 6 rooms need them.

The BO's 9 and 11 must be assembled. That is not not hard. Why assembly needed? The two wall system. You have to split the white outer wall to insert the black inner wall.

All you've said about the gourds sold here in the PCMA is probably true, as this group would not offer substandard equipment to it's members. I am pointing out that the BO9 and BO11 gourds meet every "advantage" that the other manufacturers offer, then add more.

Yes, I am excited about these gourds, having 1st hand experience with them and some others, although I have never gotten close looks at any of those you use.

[Steve Kroenke]

Joe,

Just like you, I have my preferences and I shared them on the Forum. Any one else can do the same. I did not even mention S&K because I don't use any of those products. So I really don't know what the issue is. You obviously like S&K stuff and that is your choice.

So when someone mentions gourds and all the S&K folks chime in with their recommendations, I will offer recommendations and what has worked for me, too. The gourds offered by the PMCA are good quality products and I have used them for years. So I have experience with those gourds and I will continue to comment on them. Just like you continue to comment on S&K products.

Everyone has their favorites and I hope folks will provide information about what works for them. The plastic gourds sold by PMCA are excellent products and I will continue to promote the PMCA on their Forum and to the public.

You can continue to promote whatever commercial products work you.

Good luck with your martin colony in 2011.

Steve

[Joe Zorn]

Thanks, Steve. I hope you understand that my comments were not an attack on you. I have a LOT of respect for you. Much of what I do today was learned from your posts and essays. You have not necessarily been at it longer than I, but your personal research far exceeds mine.

I am just commenting on some of your facts about the equipment. I sort of felt that you were gently critizing my comments im my first post.

Forgive me if you read a personal attack in my comments. I'm pretty sure that you did not mean it the way I read it either.

To be honest, I am not an S&K equipment supporter. I just love the BO9 and BO11 gourds for all their advantages. I couldn't recommend a rack, because I never used anyone's rack.

[Steve Kroenke]

Joe,

I have a lot of respect for the PMCA and what this organization has done for the purple martin for over 20 years. No organization or business has done more for the purple martin than the PMCA. I try to support the PMCA through my membership, buying their products and making donations. So when I get a chance to promote the PMCA, I am happy to do so. Since I use many of the martin products offered by the PMCA, I have first hand experience and can share that information with others.

My comments were in no way attacking you or any person who uses S&K martin products. I was just promoting what has worked for me and the PMCA at the same time. Since I don't use S&K products at this time, I am in no position to evaluate them. Perhaps in the future I will try some of their gourds and I value the opinions of folks like you who have first hand experience.

I appreciate what you have done for the purple martin and your efforts to improve martin housing. And I appreciate all responsible martin landlords and these folks can use a variety of commercial housing.

We are all part of the purple martin community and we should all try our best to work together for the benefit of the martin and insuring the survival of the species for future generations of landlords to enjoy.

Steve

[Joe Zorn]

Thanks again, Steve. I was pretty sure you weren't upset, but didn't want a misunderstanding to get out of hand. It happens quickly with the written word, no matter how many smiley faces we insert.

NOW, what about gourd racks? And why?

[Guest]

Guys,

Thanks so much for your replies. That is one thing I really appreciate about this site and the folks who use it. You guys are always very helpful and willing to share information and experience with the unexperienced like myself. We're all in this boat together, helping the Purple Martins survive and prosper, and having some fun and enjoyment while doing so.

I'm sure when I get back home this evening and read all the details a little closer, and look at the gourds and their accessories, I'll probably have a few more questions. I'm sure most racks/gourds would work just fine in my situation, I just didn't want to make a quick/stupid decision that would give more advantages to the predators and environment than the martins I'm trying to attract.

Thanks again,
Bert

[jldoll]

Hi Bert
Perhaps the best thing for you to do is look around your area and see what type of gourds most of the successful landlords are using.
I think the martins of your area will accept nesting gourds better, if they are like the ones they were fledged from.

Just a thought." Jerry

[Keith]

Hello Bert,
Since you ask about this and will be investing some money here in the gourd housing we will mention that ALL the disirable characteristics that people look for in housing can be found in the Bo-11 gourd when the tunnel and vent cap are included. I could name them here but I will let the manufacturer do that. If you take the time to check posts from the past I think you will find that the landlords that actually have and use this gourd have nothing but positive comments.
Keith

[Tim Stover]

Hi Bert i ask the same question got the same responces so here is what i did i bought a few of each compaired them to the naturals that the martins used last year remembering what my father told me that martins loved deep gourds not just 11 or 12" across but deep i believe that is why we have so many to jump early because the entrance is so low to the bottom of the gourd by the time they can crawl they can exit the entrance this is only mine and dads opinion i was looking at some of steves old pictures of natural gourds they was very deep looked very nice now getting back to the plastics i pucharsed 10 bo11 with clinger tunnels 8 big bo with tunnels and 32 troyer vertical gourds the only thing i don't like about the bo11 is entrance to low and gourd has no depth for nest i like the big bo but my choice is troyer vertical gourd after my natural's of course i often wander how deep the native cavities is anyone know this is only my thoughts Thanks Tim

[John Miller]

Bert

I've been advising a fellow who lives in an outlying subdivision in the St. Louis area. His site sounds like yours, and I suggested to him:

Consider a 16-foot-tall rack. His site has two-story houses on the sides, and open flyways front and back, but that's not ideal and I think a little more height may help.

Gourds, whew. I use about everything, and try to choose gourds for specific locations. I hang naturals below aluminum houses because naturals are light weight. I use Excluders at some public sites because these gourds are very heavy duty and hopefully would withstand rocks, and the porches are very thick and bolted on -- won't break in a hail storm.

I have a hunch the Troyer horizontals are the best accepted initially and so could be helpful at an unestablished site. The female looks for an interior that's snug for her nest bowl, out direct site of the entrance, and where she feels protected. Some of us observe that martins tend to choose gourds somewhat smaller -- about 9 inches -- over gourds 11 or 12 inches, probably for this reason. It's why they like the back compartments of Trio Houses, and maybe why they like gourds with tunnels, which indeed you can get with many gourds. But I do have a further theory about the Troyers.

And...if you buy now I'll throw in..(badly joking). The horizontal shape may allow her to sit on the porch and peer in a 360-degree direction, scoping the surroundings and getting comfortable before she enters. I may be blowing smoke, but I've seen Troyer horizontals chosen first over other gourds, and conclude they very good gourds to at least mix in to try and start a colony. And they look like security cameras, so might keep your neighbors guessing what you are up to.

John M

[Guest]

I knew I would eventually have another question or two. Will the BO11 gourds fit on the deluxe gourd rack arms without any problems? I'm asking because it looks like the BO11 gourds have a square hole for hanging.

Also, anyone know what the distance is from the pole to the outside of the hanging arms on the deluxe gourd rack, as well as the same question for the S&K multi gourd rack?

Thanks for all the replies above. I'm a little behind, but hopefully I can place an order this weekend and possibly have something to stick in the ground next weekend.

Thanks again,
Bert

[jldoll]

The deluxe rack From pole to the outside of the hanging arm,
seventeen and one half inch

[Guest]

jldoll, thanks for that measurement. It's a much tighter circle than I thought. But that's good, as that's what I need. Just need to figure out if the BO11 gourd will fit on that arm without any problem.

Thanks again,
Bert