If I were to make these would the gourd wall hold up on the hanger rod as well as the neck would? Also this horizontal position of the gourd just seems to me that heat would be more of a problem than the vertical. Someone with knowledge here could sure help me out and maybe save me some time and trouble. If anyone has made these and have pictures this would also be helpful.
Keith
Horizontal Natural Gourd Questions
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
Yes, the gourd wall will hold up but its a lot harder to get the hanger rod in the right place. In fact, its difficult to get it balanced. Like you say, the venting is not as good because its so shallow. I had made quite a few but quit making them because of the difficulties in hanging and venting them. I like to do things the easiest way, and the easist way by far is to hang the gourds from the neck. I always use tunnels, and its easiest for me to use the vertical gourd with tunnels, and the martins seem to prefer that. Many times I have seen it said that martins love the horizontal, but they don't love them any more than the other gourds that I have put up. Martins will accept anything that you put up at an established colony, and since I have a large colony, I always do things that I consider to be the easiest, so I just use vertical gourds.
Since I make most of my own tunnels, I can make the tunnel longer, and attach it to a smaller gourd, like an 8.5 or 9in gourd, with a 6in long tunnel, and it looks a lot like a troyer horizontal. Its easy to do, so this iis my method. So you wonder why such a long tunnel, its for owl protection, I like to have 13 to 14in from the entrance to the back of the gourdm, and that provides a lot of protection. The martins must feel safer when there is 13 to 14in of space.
Since I make most of my own tunnels, I can make the tunnel longer, and attach it to a smaller gourd, like an 8.5 or 9in gourd, with a 6in long tunnel, and it looks a lot like a troyer horizontal. Its easy to do, so this iis my method. So you wonder why such a long tunnel, its for owl protection, I like to have 13 to 14in from the entrance to the back of the gourdm, and that provides a lot of protection. The martins must feel safer when there is 13 to 14in of space.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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Dennis - AL
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
- Location: Atmore, AL
Emil, is there any way we could get a picture of the tunnel attached to the gourd?
Thanks
Dennis
Thanks
Dennis
Persistence is not necessarily the key to success, but can be likened to the proverbial sand that brings forth a precious pearl.
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Here are pictures of two different types that I've made. The true horizontal is hung from two small eye bolts, one attached to the tunnel and one to the gourd body. As you can see, I cut off the gourd neck and inserted the tunnel there. I used large fender washers inside the gourd to spread the stress on the shell out. I also put a rubber washer between the gourd shell and the fender washer to act as a shock abosorber. I put a good sized glob of silicone on the eye bolt before inserting it into the gourd, and used a nylock nut to hold it on, with the regular nut run up to the eye, so I could adjust the length of the eye bolt. I first started out with one eye bolt on the tunnel, and two on the back end, using the back two hangning wires to level the gourd. That was way, way too much trouble to hang them, so I just put one eye bolt on the rear of the gourd, and placed it slightly off center, towards the cleanout port. They hang perfectly level that way.
The 45 degree angle gourd is probably my favorite gourd that I've ever made. Once I cut the hole in the neck, I inserted the tunnel, traced around it with a marker, then trimmed the tunnel to meet the line. There is no amount of tunnel sticking into that gourd. I didn't want the tunnel to interfere with the nestlings climbing up to the entrance. The adults do not build a deep nest in that gourd. They nest in the bottom of it. They have never added enough nesting material to be less than 3 inches below the bottom of the tunnel. I used a piece of 1/4" copper tubing through the neck to run the hanging wire through, and one eye bolt on the rear. I tie that gourd so that the porch angles slightly downward. Both of these gourds are about 8 inches in diameter. With the SREH tunnels added, both offer plenty of depth and protection from predators. Used this way, that size gourd is large enough for Martins to raise all the nestlings they can in, but they are not safe IMO without a tunnel. I think I actually bought both of those gourds at a fruit stand in the fall.
The 45 degree angle gourd is probably my favorite gourd that I've ever made. Once I cut the hole in the neck, I inserted the tunnel, traced around it with a marker, then trimmed the tunnel to meet the line. There is no amount of tunnel sticking into that gourd. I didn't want the tunnel to interfere with the nestlings climbing up to the entrance. The adults do not build a deep nest in that gourd. They nest in the bottom of it. They have never added enough nesting material to be less than 3 inches below the bottom of the tunnel. I used a piece of 1/4" copper tubing through the neck to run the hanging wire through, and one eye bolt on the rear. I tie that gourd so that the porch angles slightly downward. Both of these gourds are about 8 inches in diameter. With the SREH tunnels added, both offer plenty of depth and protection from predators. Used this way, that size gourd is large enough for Martins to raise all the nestlings they can in, but they are not safe IMO without a tunnel. I think I actually bought both of those gourds at a fruit stand in the fall.
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Dennis - AL
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
- Location: Atmore, AL
Very nice work Brad... I like the one set at 45 degree angle also.
Dennis
Dennis
Persistence is not necessarily the key to success, but can be likened to the proverbial sand that brings forth a precious pearl.
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
Dennis, when I made the horizontals, I made them just as shown by Brad but I don't have any left to show
I can show how I hang the verticals, seems to me like this is similar to a horizontal but with better venting. I like the long neck for better owl protection. Also, the gourds are mounted so that they do not swing.
I can show how I hang the verticals, seems to me like this is similar to a horizontal but with better venting. I like the long neck for better owl protection. Also, the gourds are mounted so that they do not swing.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
Thanks Dennis. I am retiring all my naturals this season, with the exception of 4 or 5. The 45 degree gourd in the pic will be one of those 4 or 5. Funny (sad) story about that gourd. When I got finished taking that picture, I turned to set the camera down. When I did, I heard bump, bump, crack. The gourd fell off the truck, onto the concrete driveway, and cracked up both sides from the bottom up nearly to the top. Any other gourd, I would have thrown in the trash, but I took that one, spread the crack enough to get construction adhesive in it, and glued it back together. That's been 5 or so years ago, and it's still holding.
So folks don't get mixed up, there's a Natureline gourd sitting behind the 45 degree gourd. The neck is showing above the cleanout hole.
So folks don't get mixed up, there's a Natureline gourd sitting behind the 45 degree gourd. The neck is showing above the cleanout hole.
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Steve Kroenke
- Posts: 4342
- Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
- Location: Louisiana/Logansport
Hey Keith,
In the past I have used many natural gourds that are vertically deep and suspended at about a 45 degree angle or are more of a horizontal type with the entrance cut on the neck side or neck end. All these gourds were 100% occupied each season.
The vertically deep naturals are what I call woodpecker gourds because they attempt to replicate the excellent qualities of a natural woodpecker cavity. The entrance is cut high up on the neck and the martins are deep down inside the gourd and out of view and reach of avian predators like owls. Plus the vertical depth with the entrance cut high up may better vent the gourd: the entrance acts like a giant vent that channels out rising hot/humid air. The martins do not build their nest all the way up the entrance hole and the young tend to stay deep inside until they are much older and closer to fledging.
I used two different kinds of horizontal natural gourds. One type is the more elongated natural which some call a “penguin” gourd. The gourd is hung on the crossbar in a sideways fashion and the entrance is cut on the neck to produce a 90 degree angle of turn. The martins enter the entrance, hang a sharp turn, and then move down into the horizontally deep cavity. Just like with the woodpecker gourd, the martins are deep down inside and out of view and reach of owls. But the martins are “horizontally” deep rather than “vertically”. The same effect is produced: out of view and out of reach.
The other horizontal natural gourd is what I call a funnel gourd; this type of gourd tends to have a longer neck. The entrance is cut on the end of the neck to create a funnel foyer. The martins enter this entrance hole which gradually widens like a funnel until it reaches the nesting chamber. This is more of a funnel than a tunnel but creates the same effect: restrictive entrance area which minimizes visibility and access by owls. Some of my funnel gourds had necks that curved a little downward.
Originally I didn’t add any kind of perch/porch underneath the entrance holes since martins can easily the round holes. However, I later started adding either cane or wire perches under the entrances to make it much easier for martins to enter these cavities and more importantly greatly help the martins to feed large nestlings that eventually start to cluster around the entrances. Without the perches, the parent martins would sometimes drop dragonflies as the martins tried to hang on the entrance with nestling heads protruding and trying to get the food. The perches made it much easier to sit there and deliver prey to their young. The perches also made it easier for martins to bring their young back to roost in the evenings as the fledglings could first cling to the perch and then enter.
Hanging these types of gourds was more difficult than regular vertical naturals. I had to insert wire through holes in the gourd’s back area rather than a smaller neck which is much easier to do. I inserted the wire from the inside through the access port and then the wire ends were attached to crossbars or gourd mounting arms. It was a little tricky doing this and trying to balance the gourd and keeping the wire pushed up from the inside against the gourd’s back.
Vertically deep and horizontal natural gourds are excellent cavities for martins and provide deep, dark and secluded nests. The martins are out of view and sight of avian predators like owls and hawks. Female martins which actually select the males and their territory and choose the cavity may instinctively look for nest sites that are deep and secluded. These cavities offer more protection from predators just the woodpecker cavities did for martins in the past in the eastern United States and still do out west.
However, I have now replaced all my naturals with various plastic gourds which have proven to be just as attractive to martins and raise just as many young. The Troyer Horizontal and Vertical with their tunneled entrance area closely match the protective attributes found in similarly shaped naturals.
Here are some photos of woodpecker, horizontal with offset hole, and funnel gourds with martins in residence; you can see how I suspended the gourds on the crossbars/gourd mounting arms:
This photo shows an ASY female martin peeking out of her vertically deep woodpecker gourd with the entrance cut high up on the neck. No perch on this gourd.
This photo shows an ASY male martin sitting on his cane perch in front of the entrance to a horizontal natural gourd with the entrance cut on the neck side to produce a 90 degree angle of entry. You can barely see his mate’s head in the entrance.
This photo shows an ASY male martin sitting in the entrance to his vertically deep woodpecker gourd and another male on the crossbar above. No perch on this gourd.
This photo show a natural funnel gourd with the entrance cut at the end of the gourd’s neck. I attached a wire perch to the end of the tunnel and the martin’s really enjoyed these perches. There is an ASY male martin peeking out the entrance.
This photo shows a vertically deep woodpecker gourd with an ASY male martin on the perch and his mate in the entrance hole. This was large natural gourd that raised MANY babies for several years. The entrance was cut about 10 inches up on the neck and the gourd suspended at about a 45 degree angle.
Steve
In the past I have used many natural gourds that are vertically deep and suspended at about a 45 degree angle or are more of a horizontal type with the entrance cut on the neck side or neck end. All these gourds were 100% occupied each season.
The vertically deep naturals are what I call woodpecker gourds because they attempt to replicate the excellent qualities of a natural woodpecker cavity. The entrance is cut high up on the neck and the martins are deep down inside the gourd and out of view and reach of avian predators like owls. Plus the vertical depth with the entrance cut high up may better vent the gourd: the entrance acts like a giant vent that channels out rising hot/humid air. The martins do not build their nest all the way up the entrance hole and the young tend to stay deep inside until they are much older and closer to fledging.
I used two different kinds of horizontal natural gourds. One type is the more elongated natural which some call a “penguin” gourd. The gourd is hung on the crossbar in a sideways fashion and the entrance is cut on the neck to produce a 90 degree angle of turn. The martins enter the entrance, hang a sharp turn, and then move down into the horizontally deep cavity. Just like with the woodpecker gourd, the martins are deep down inside and out of view and reach of owls. But the martins are “horizontally” deep rather than “vertically”. The same effect is produced: out of view and out of reach.
The other horizontal natural gourd is what I call a funnel gourd; this type of gourd tends to have a longer neck. The entrance is cut on the end of the neck to create a funnel foyer. The martins enter this entrance hole which gradually widens like a funnel until it reaches the nesting chamber. This is more of a funnel than a tunnel but creates the same effect: restrictive entrance area which minimizes visibility and access by owls. Some of my funnel gourds had necks that curved a little downward.
Originally I didn’t add any kind of perch/porch underneath the entrance holes since martins can easily the round holes. However, I later started adding either cane or wire perches under the entrances to make it much easier for martins to enter these cavities and more importantly greatly help the martins to feed large nestlings that eventually start to cluster around the entrances. Without the perches, the parent martins would sometimes drop dragonflies as the martins tried to hang on the entrance with nestling heads protruding and trying to get the food. The perches made it much easier to sit there and deliver prey to their young. The perches also made it easier for martins to bring their young back to roost in the evenings as the fledglings could first cling to the perch and then enter.
Hanging these types of gourds was more difficult than regular vertical naturals. I had to insert wire through holes in the gourd’s back area rather than a smaller neck which is much easier to do. I inserted the wire from the inside through the access port and then the wire ends were attached to crossbars or gourd mounting arms. It was a little tricky doing this and trying to balance the gourd and keeping the wire pushed up from the inside against the gourd’s back.
Vertically deep and horizontal natural gourds are excellent cavities for martins and provide deep, dark and secluded nests. The martins are out of view and sight of avian predators like owls and hawks. Female martins which actually select the males and their territory and choose the cavity may instinctively look for nest sites that are deep and secluded. These cavities offer more protection from predators just the woodpecker cavities did for martins in the past in the eastern United States and still do out west.
However, I have now replaced all my naturals with various plastic gourds which have proven to be just as attractive to martins and raise just as many young. The Troyer Horizontal and Vertical with their tunneled entrance area closely match the protective attributes found in similarly shaped naturals.
Here are some photos of woodpecker, horizontal with offset hole, and funnel gourds with martins in residence; you can see how I suspended the gourds on the crossbars/gourd mounting arms:
This photo shows an ASY female martin peeking out of her vertically deep woodpecker gourd with the entrance cut high up on the neck. No perch on this gourd.
This photo shows an ASY male martin sitting on his cane perch in front of the entrance to a horizontal natural gourd with the entrance cut on the neck side to produce a 90 degree angle of entry. You can barely see his mate’s head in the entrance.
This photo shows an ASY male martin sitting in the entrance to his vertically deep woodpecker gourd and another male on the crossbar above. No perch on this gourd.
This photo show a natural funnel gourd with the entrance cut at the end of the gourd’s neck. I attached a wire perch to the end of the tunnel and the martin’s really enjoyed these perches. There is an ASY male martin peeking out the entrance.
This photo shows a vertically deep woodpecker gourd with an ASY male martin on the perch and his mate in the entrance hole. This was large natural gourd that raised MANY babies for several years. The entrance was cut about 10 inches up on the neck and the gourd suspended at about a 45 degree angle.
Steve
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Dennis - AL
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
- Location: Atmore, AL
As I stated earlier in the post I really like the 45 degree technique coupled with the tunnels (for protection) that Brad and Emil have discussed. My major concern is attaching the tunnel in a durable fashion. I would not want to see the tunnel break off mid-season with a gourd full of nestlings.
Are ya'll using 1 1/2" or 2" PVC for the tunnels? Are you using something like 'Gorilla Glue" or "Liquid Nail" with a coating of silicone?
I have some nice gourds in the works that I think would make some nice 45 degree cavities if I can attach the tunnel successfully.
Height 13 1/2" - 14" Circumference 27"+
Steve would you call these "penguin" or "long neck" gourds? Do ya'll think they would be good for 45 degree horizontals?
ONe other question... what about the clean out caps? What do ya'll use and how are they attached to the naturals?
Thanks for all the help.
Dennis
Are ya'll using 1 1/2" or 2" PVC for the tunnels? Are you using something like 'Gorilla Glue" or "Liquid Nail" with a coating of silicone?
I have some nice gourds in the works that I think would make some nice 45 degree cavities if I can attach the tunnel successfully.
Height 13 1/2" - 14" Circumference 27"+
Steve would you call these "penguin" or "long neck" gourds? Do ya'll think they would be good for 45 degree horizontals?
ONe other question... what about the clean out caps? What do ya'll use and how are they attached to the naturals?
Thanks for all the help.
Dennis
- Attachments
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- gourd 1.jpg (92.55 KiB) Viewed 7565 times
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- gourd 2.jpg (70.47 KiB) Viewed 7589 times
Persistence is not necessarily the key to success, but can be likened to the proverbial sand that brings forth a precious pearl.
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The tunnels are 3" diameter Sewer and Drain pvc, with a Sintra (foamed sheet pvc) SREH faceplate glued on with pvc glue, with a 4 inch wide, 3 1/2" deep porch glued on the faceplate 1/8 th inch below the entrance. The entrances on all mine are WDC's.
On the 45 degree gourd, I roughed up the last 1/2" of the tunnel, after cutting it to match the profile of the gourd, and also sanded a 1/2" wide strip around the hole in the gourd. On that gourd I used PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive. You can paint over it. Any that I build that way in the future, I will glue the tunnel on with white LEXEL. It is harder to work with than latex caulk, can't be smoothed as well as latex caulk, but it WON'T let go of what you put it on. It remains somewhat flexible once dry, it is the only caulk that I use on my plastic gourds. It's the closest thing to having a permanent bond between two pieces of plastic that I have found.
On a vertical gourd, I leave about one inch of my 3 inch long tunnels inside the gourd to help stabilize the tunnel, but after having this one with the tunnel flush with the interior of the gourd, that is probably more overkill than a necessity.
EDIT: By the way Dennis, I've spent a good bit of time just a little north of you. One of my good school friends grew up in Frisco City. I may be the only person on this forum, probably besides you, that knows where Megargel and Uriah AL are without using Google Maps.
On the 45 degree gourd, I roughed up the last 1/2" of the tunnel, after cutting it to match the profile of the gourd, and also sanded a 1/2" wide strip around the hole in the gourd. On that gourd I used PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive. You can paint over it. Any that I build that way in the future, I will glue the tunnel on with white LEXEL. It is harder to work with than latex caulk, can't be smoothed as well as latex caulk, but it WON'T let go of what you put it on. It remains somewhat flexible once dry, it is the only caulk that I use on my plastic gourds. It's the closest thing to having a permanent bond between two pieces of plastic that I have found.
On a vertical gourd, I leave about one inch of my 3 inch long tunnels inside the gourd to help stabilize the tunnel, but after having this one with the tunnel flush with the interior of the gourd, that is probably more overkill than a necessity.
EDIT: By the way Dennis, I've spent a good bit of time just a little north of you. One of my good school friends grew up in Frisco City. I may be the only person on this forum, probably besides you, that knows where Megargel and Uriah AL are without using Google Maps.
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Dennis - AL
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
- Location: Atmore, AL
With natural gourds it is common to see two - three heads popped out of gourd for chillin', does that work with the tunnels, or is only one nestling allowed to gain access for a breath of fresh air?
Dennis
Dennis
Persistence is not necessarily the key to success, but can be likened to the proverbial sand that brings forth a precious pearl.
PMCA Member
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
Dennis, attached is a photo of a 3in tunnel that I made using a heat gun (heat guns cost about $30 to $40). This shows a one piece tunnel with a porch. Its cheap, easy to make. To finish this tunnel, I will add some traction to the floor and porch. Notice that there is a dam on the back end that keeps the water out of the gourd. I also add a drain hole on each side of the floor so water that accidently comes thru the entrance will drain.
If you plan on making your own tunnels, it is worth your time and effort to purchase a heat gun. The pvc pipe is very easily shaped with a heat gun. If you have any questions, send me an email...
If you plan on making your own tunnels, it is worth your time and effort to purchase a heat gun. The pvc pipe is very easily shaped with a heat gun. If you have any questions, send me an email...
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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Steve Kroenke
- Posts: 4342
- Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
- Location: Louisiana/Logansport
Hey Dennis,
There are many species of gourds and the common genus is Lagenaria. I have seen all kinds including snake, dipper, bottle, and on and on! And they all have different shapes and sizes.
The kettle gourd is a common variety that is often used for martin housing. This gourd tends to have a rounded or slightly elongated shape with a relatively short/medium length neck. However, there can be a lot of variation due to cross pollination and individual differences.
Your gourds may be a variety of kettle gourd with longer necks. When I grew gourds, I raised a bunch like the ones you have. And I have raised ones with short necks, too.
I don't see many of the penguin gourds and have never raised any. I bought the ones I used. These type gourds are long and narrow and make excellent horizontal gourds. You can cut holes at the end of the neck or on the side of it.
When I used a bunch of natural gourds, I liked using a variety of them with different shapes. This arrangement gave a lot of diversity to my gourd racks and allowed several kinds of interesting entrance hole placement configurations. I like both horizontally and vertically deep naturals and so did the martins in my colony.
I think your gourds look good and you could easily use a tunnel arrangement with them.
Once you get your gourds prepared, I am sure the folks on the Forum would like to see some photos of them!
Steve
There are many species of gourds and the common genus is Lagenaria. I have seen all kinds including snake, dipper, bottle, and on and on! And they all have different shapes and sizes.
The kettle gourd is a common variety that is often used for martin housing. This gourd tends to have a rounded or slightly elongated shape with a relatively short/medium length neck. However, there can be a lot of variation due to cross pollination and individual differences.
Your gourds may be a variety of kettle gourd with longer necks. When I grew gourds, I raised a bunch like the ones you have. And I have raised ones with short necks, too.
I don't see many of the penguin gourds and have never raised any. I bought the ones I used. These type gourds are long and narrow and make excellent horizontal gourds. You can cut holes at the end of the neck or on the side of it.
When I used a bunch of natural gourds, I liked using a variety of them with different shapes. This arrangement gave a lot of diversity to my gourd racks and allowed several kinds of interesting entrance hole placement configurations. I like both horizontally and vertically deep naturals and so did the martins in my colony.
I think your gourds look good and you could easily use a tunnel arrangement with them.
Once you get your gourds prepared, I am sure the folks on the Forum would like to see some photos of them!
Steve
Last edited by Steve Kroenke on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
If you purchase gourds, its ok to have a large variety. If you want gourds that look like a plastic gourd, then gourd types should not be mixed in a garden. Gourds cross pollinate, and that causes problems if you plant seeds from the cross pollinated gourds, you may get anything.
For years, my neighbor and I have been trying to improve the shape and quality of our gourds. We only plant the seeds from the best shaped gourds. If you ever get a good strain of gourds, do not plant any other gourds within a few hundred yards of them. By doing that, you will be able to protect that good strain of gourds.
For years, my neighbor and I have been trying to improve the shape and quality of our gourds. We only plant the seeds from the best shaped gourds. If you ever get a good strain of gourds, do not plant any other gourds within a few hundred yards of them. By doing that, you will be able to protect that good strain of gourds.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
I also use natural gourds because they weigh less. I would never have thought the parents and babies could make it up those steep walls.
I do know they have good nails on their feet so I learned another lesson.
Thanks for sharing.
I do know they have good nails on their feet so I learned another lesson.
Thanks for sharing.
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Dennis - AL
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
- Location: Atmore, AL
Joe are your natural gourds hung horizontal or vertical?
Do you add tunnels to them?
Dennis
Do you add tunnels to them?
Dennis
Persistence is not necessarily the key to success, but can be likened to the proverbial sand that brings forth a precious pearl.
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Dennis - AL
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
- Location: Atmore, AL
Joe, do you have any pictures of you vertical gourds with porches and awnings?
Thanks
Dennis
Thanks
Dennis
Persistence is not necessarily the key to success, but can be likened to the proverbial sand that brings forth a precious pearl.
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