Why are round entrance holes still in use?

[T Seber]

Just one more word and I probably should just get out now. ALL OF US have not seen wing entrapment. I have yet to ever see the first case with sreh and tunnels built the way I build them. It might be more correct to say SOME Or even MANY but not ALL of us have not seen wing entrapment. Just a small thing but perhaps now is the time speak up and be very clear that I have not seen wing entrapment. I know other landlords who have never seen it including my friend and neighbor Dwayne Cantrell who also has a super colony. Now... It will take a lot to get me to respond even one more time on this thread.......smile

[Indiana_Tom]

Here is one of my thoughts. I am newer than most anyone here but the newbees have their own specific problems to deal with. I started last year and used all crescent holes. It seemed like I would never get a pair. Late in the season, I did get one pair.

This year, with a returning pair, I have seen three times the martins and believe I have three pair.

The hardest thing I notice is attracting the first pair. And I expected that pair to squeeze into a tight entrance. When you are dealing with a year between chances, I would almost recommend a newbee to have at least two compartments with round entrances to get a start. Then later that year or the next, go to a restrictive entrance. With this in mind, the newbee would need to be on alert all the time to stop a starling problem. He should have the round holes positioned for the best trapping, shooting or dynamiting.

This is my thought for newbees in an area with a starling problem. Newbee or long time landlord, it is your choice.

Tom

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Brad, I want to change my positon, I want to join with the Round Hole Crowd, I think that we outnumber you SREH people. Here is why I am changing my position:

1)Why should I change to 100% SREH? I still have 1 round hole, the martins are using it, and are doing fine this year. A starling didn't kill them.

2)Probably the most important reason is that we live in a free country. I know that you didn't tell us to use SREH, but I want to make sure that you understand that I want to safeguard my rights in every manner. We have fewer rights every year, so I firmly stand against selling only SREH on new houses and gourds. I want a choice.

3)I wonder what the people China, Cuba, and North Korea use to protect their martins. When I was drafted into the army during the Korean War, I didn't see any martins, but maybe there are no martins in South Korea. I bet that they have a choice in their country, and I bet that their choice is round holes if they have martins. (those funny looking SREH may be too hard to make without the right tools)

4)I never had entrapment at our place when I used round holes. (I hate to mention it here now, but I didn't have any entrapment with the 3in tunnels and SREH either. But that doesn't matter, I want to keep that 1 round hole). I think that wing entrapment kills a lot more martins than starlings do anyway. I heard that wing entrapment can be stopped, but I doubt that I need to worry about it at my place since I never had it before

5)Also, I don't have much of a starling problem anyway. I only trap or shot about 8 starlings this year. I spend many hours protecting that 1 round hole on my housing, I sit for hours guarding it with my pellet rifle in my arms. I had one starling that I couldn't get a shot at with my pellet rifle so I nailed him with my 12 ga shotgun. Feathers flew everywhere when I shot it, poor thing, it never had a chance..

6)Since the round hole is so easy to make, lets just forget about the starlings, and only use round holes. I am getting too old to make the SREH, my eyes can't see well enough to make them complicated things. I want to reduce my workload, and furthermore, most of my neighbors use only round holes.

7)We have many starlings in Texas in the winter especially. They see me sitting there with my 12ga shotgun, so they don't come close to my house, they are really smart birds. That shotgun, they must remember it, they don't bother me much during the rest of the year, they must be able to remember that 12ga. I had purple martins when I lived in Gretna, La over 50 years ago, in fact, I started being a landlord there. Things are different in La however, the culture, the food is very good, and the language is even a bit different. Even the starlings cannot accept that difference. I never had any when I lived in La so why does anyone else have a problem? I bet many of you are not serious about the starling problem that you have in other states. Round holes work ok in La, people in La only kill a few of them nasty starlings every year.

8)When I first started with martins, I saw very few hawks. Then when I moved to my present house I switched to mostly SREH, that gave the benefit of the doubt to the hawks. They now have the edge and they sometimes catch a martin. I feel good about that round hole that remains on the gourd rack, I know that the hawks will not be able to catch any of the martins that are using that round hole.

9)I spend a lot of time watching the martins. I love to see them enter that round hole without slowing down any at all, they are going so fast. I sometimes wonder how they are able to stop inside that gourd without killing the babies, this habit seems dangerous to me. I don't worry about it, I know that nature will take care of them

10)I want to say a bit about my housing. My housing is not cheap, but not expensive, I made most of it myself. Its my hobby so that small cost doesn't matter anyway. But it sure is a lot easier to make a round hole. I may forget that complicated measurement that the SREH uses. I much prefer to make that round hole.

11)And Brad, I didn't really want to tell people that I have this one round hole, thats really none of their business that I have it, but I am so proud of it, I want to keep it, mostly to defend my rights.

12)I wish that you could come and see how few starlings we have, so drop by if you ever come this way. I have 239 gourds with SREH entrances, so if you come, don't consider that, I want to show you that I do have a round holed gourd.

Brad, this round hole discussion is getting out of hand, I may need to delete this post after I reread it.


EDIT: I can't delete this dang post...Maybe Louise can..I will thank you ahead of time: THANKS, Louise

By the way, I am not serious, hope you take this as a joke

[M.Stephens]

I love Emil's answer

[Robert Richerson]

(Let's hip-hop!)

I like big gourds and I cannot lie
All you other brothers can't deny

When I see your gourds made with ugly paste
I'll throw a round hole in your face

You get sprung, wanna show you're tough
Cause you notice my round hole gourds are stuffed

Deep round holes my gourds are a wearing
I am hooked and I cannot stop a staring

Oh baby martins, I wanna watch you fly
And take some pictures while your in the sky

My homeboys Scott & Emil both tried to warn me
That my round holes make you all so ANGRY.

Werd up...

[Brad-AL]

Thurman, I had given up posting on this one too, but I'll chime in and say that you, DeWayne Cantrell and Emil (even though he didn't want to admit it) aren't the only ones that have never seen wing entrapment in an SREH, I haven't either. So maybe all SREH user haven't seen wing entrapment. I have seen pictures and posts of wing entrapment, but never heard of any in a vertically hung gourd with 3" tunnel. I know my little colony doesn't have enough Martins to make my experience worth much, but that's my experience, no wing entrapment in a 3" diameter round tunnel with SREH. I know before I reduced the size of my colony to 80 gourds, that I had just a few over 100 nesting pair for a couple of years, but that's not enough Martins to make form an educated opinion from, is it?

Emil. I have a confession or two to make. I was a hypocrite at the time of my posting this because I had a round hole too. It was a 3 1/4" round hole. I found a tunnel on the ground Friday morning, directly under the gourd that it fell out of, but I didn't immediately replace it. When the tornado that passed through our town in late April came through, we were spared any damage, but had a pretty good hail storm. I had some broken porches and apparently this tunnel had been knocked loose. I had an opportunity to replace it today. When I replaced it the gourd was cracked above the tunnel where it got hit by a hail stone. It's fixed now, so I am back to 100% 3" tunnelled WDC entrances. The second thing I am confessing about is that your post is quite possibly the funniest post I have ever read. I LOVED it. You are right though, you'd better swap back to round holes. They must be better than SREH. I did a nestcheck today, and even though I have all SREH, I found 76 Martin nests inside the 80 gourds that I am now using. About half of them had hatchlings, and the other half still had eggs. Nests were built in the 4 gourds with no eggs. I didn't find any blue eggs in any nests. Emil, did I ever tell you that since my second year as a landlord I have had 100% occupancy on my gourd racks? Actually most years I have more pairs than gourds. When the early ASY's fledge their young, I have had another nesting in a few gourds each year.

I'm left handed so I don't use my rights much....

[Scott D.- La]

Whooooooooooo..... I think we have entered the twilight zone boy's. Robert, I can just picture you rapping at the microphone That made my day ROFL!!
I think, I am out of this one, Good Luck with your colonies no matter what you use.

[Robert Richerson]

And I'm the guy with no round holes, except the one in my head.

[Sam Harris]

I have SREHs in my 2 houses. But have round hole in my gourds with no porches. For some reason the starlings around my place do not like the gourds. Maybe they don't like the gourds swinging. They did however nearly run off my first pair in my Trio after I enlarged the compartments still using round holes. That was a big mistake. I have now converted that house to SREHs too. It was actually funny watching that starling try to get in. But as he nearly got stuck I took him out. Haven't seen one all day. But I know they will always be around. But hopefully they will move on to some run-down houses around here still with round holes. And as for the Tinker AFB colony , those 2 Trio castles have only round holes. Those houses have been out there since the late 80s. I think out there the starlings are not as much a problem due to the many other nesting cavities all around the base including some of the aircraft. In conclusion I believe this argument will always be around as long as there are starlings, but people must decide for themselves. As for me I will always use SREHs on my own houses. I have tried too long to get these martins. And I don't want those flying rats to run them off. Now if we can only find a way to eliminate HOSP. They are harder to shoot...

[Scully]

OK, so it appears only SOME of us have seen wing entrapment ....but it does happen, and is regularly reported here, by even the small sample of landlords who post here. I've had one.

I'm in the camp though of those who think all new housing oughtta be offered with SREH's (in that regard, S&K has done a LOT in bringing SREH technology to yer average Joe with a "birdhouse").

Certainly SREH's have made low-maintenance colonies in public school and public settings possible.

Mike Scully

[T Seber]

Mike Scully... I said no more posts but since the subject has changed slightly and has moved in a more positive direction I will break my word and post again.

First...thank you Mike for your last very positive post and with that statement I can agree. Mike I fully, fully, believe the key here is the proper construction of sreh with tunnels. The men who have just posted have a thing in common with me and with my friend Dwayne Cantrell. We all make our tunnels, porches and sreh in almost exactly the same way. We use 3 " pvc for the tunnels. We keep the porches very near flush with the sreh and we make the sreh at the same width as the inside diameter of the pvc tunnel. This leaves no room for the wings to hang on the side sreh or off the tunnel. I would almost bet the farm that the majority of wing entrapment reported does not occur in this type tunnel...sreh combination. In fact, I would doubt that any of it occurred in this type construction.

Not only that but martins pass in and out of sreh made this way with all ease. Having used round holes in days gone by, but having built my colony here at this location with sreh built as described....I can tell little or no difference in the ease of building a colony with round holes or sreh built the way we build them. If anything, I would give the nod to the sreh...three inch pvc tunnels and porches. Please believe me when I tell you all that this type sreh.....made with three inch pvc tunnels and porches held very near flush with the bottom of the sreh is very, very, very attractive to martins.

Please let me say in closing that I appreciate the fact that this thread has turned in positive directions. There is nothing at all to be gained by flaming someone else for their opinion which they have the right to have.

Except for the benefit of new landlords and the good of the martins....I really don't much care what anyone uses. If I can help anyone I take pleasure in trying to do so. I also try hard not to cross over the line of helping as needed into helping where I am not wanted or needed. So....don't ever read me as trying to tell you how to do your martin business. I do try to share what I think to be correct...whether believed and accepted or not......smile

This response is first for Mike Scully thanking him for his very positive final post. And...if it is helpful to anyone else I am glad, If not...at least it was free.....smile

[Robert Richerson]

.....I can tell little or no difference in the ease of building a colony with round holes or sreh built the way we build them. If anything, I would give the nod to the sreh.

Very interesting bold statement. I would be very intrigued to see this tested at a new colony, offering both round holes and the type of SREH with tunnels you are describing. I may check to see if my brother is interested in starting a colony and experiment a little.

Thanks for the idea.

[T Seber]

Robert I have thought the very same thing. The way I built my colony was not a good test. I did start with a few round holes. As I added sreh with tunnels I quickly saw that the martins were very easily accepting them and seemed to be accepting them perhaps even a little better than the round holes that I had always used before. I thought sure they would use the round holes first and was surprised to see they didn't, especially since I had the first sreh in my whole area. Less than a month into the season I pulled all the round holes except three which had nesting martins started nest building in them. I replaced the round holes as quickly as I could get the sreh tunnels built and hung them back on the racks. I had 23 pairs that first season with 20 in sreh with tunnels and the three in round holes.
That was not a good and fair test since the round holes were replaced so early. The balance could have swung the other way...I doubt it would but it could have. To be a fair test the same number of round holes and sreh would need to be placed on each rack with the same number on each level of the rack and fair balance be given to direction the hole faced.

I would also want the sreh with tunnels built just the way I build them. A round hole is pretty much a round hole assuming the size is consistent. There is a world of difference in sreh and the way they are built. I can not and do not speak for any other style than the style I use. Perhaps I am just prejudiced but I happen to believe the way I do them is the best way they can be done. A fair number of people have copied my style pretty closely now and most of them report similar findings. Brad Biddle being one of them, I was not surprised to hear his conviction on sreh with tunnels. I know Brad very well. He lives a hundred miles or so south of me and I have visited him on more than one occasion and seen his colony. It looks almost exactly like mine as far as martin housing is concerned. I have spent some time with him and gone fishing with him. In my opinion Brad is a very good landlord and a good man as well.

But back to your statement. That would be very interesting. I would be happy to build a couple of the sreh gourds with my style tunnel if someone else would copy them exactly and build the rest.

[Scott D.- La]

Robert,
I was not going to come back to this thread however, using both round and SREH, thought I may contribute something of interest to "you". I absolutely don't see any preference between Round and SREH and if anything populate my SREH quicker, probably due to having more of them than round holes. I have always volunteered my colony for testing various SREH designs for Martin "acceptance" ( all I could offer) and have never failed at getting acceptance on any design I have tried out here, including the Dually and ACE. This year was my second using both the aforementioned SREH and both were claimed even quicker this go around. When I installed the first Clinger's, they were immediately accepted as if they had always been used here, a little slower with Modified Excluders, but not a whole lot. I really think in the South with strong populations, the birds are going to use what is offered if the site and population is decent. Landlords up North seem to have more difficulty by reading post, but is probably more linked to population issues than equipment. The only issues I have ever had with SREH has been entrapment on commercially available entrances and tunnels however, no longer believe that will be a issue at my site.

[Robert Richerson]

Scott, as you know I am 100% SREH and my colony has grown nicely this year. My only question was if starting a new colony, which entry would facilitate attracting the first occupants. I have always assumed round holes would. I'll take your guy's word for it that this may not be the case.

[Guest]

I am a "conservative". I do not want anyone telling me how to run my colony but will listen to all advice. Just like I don't want more government telling me what to do.

I started my colony out with only SREH's. Why, because I had so many starlings here & knew with all the other work I have to do I would not have that much time to control them. Them SREH had no porches either. No trouble when i got that first pair of SY's. Never had a round hole here. This is my 5th year & looks like I might get over 50 pair. I strongly believe I got my birds from over at a place called Pond fork which is some 35 miles long & many colonies lie along that creek with plenty of gourds. Round hole gourds. Them people over there most don't know what a SREH is.

So IMO landlords can do whatever they choose. If they mess up it will be their fault & we can all say I told you so. Believe me I can make plenty of them mistakes.

[Scott D.- La]

Robert,
Sorry...... I guess I did not read that right. I would imagine it would be a coin toss and can only guess.

[Guest]

So, at the risk of sound obnoxious (which I promise is not what I mean to do) why are some of you still using round holes?

Um, because I want to, because I'm trying to restart a colony from scratch, and because there are virtually no colonies in my close vicinity with anything other than round holes, and round hole preferences are basically programmed into birds by nature.

[T Seber]

Hey...Thanks Liz If I wanted to use round holes I certainly would and many have gone and given their life for freedom in America to make choice about big things and about little things as well. I believe in that and if I know my heart I would fight and die for the sake of freedom in America as well. I fear freedom will soon be a thing of the past

I am not quite so sure that round holes are programmed into martins by nature. I can understand why you say that and why many would believe that to be true. It does Look logical but may prove to be untrue in the final analysis.
In any event I fully support your right to have round holes or sreh or no holes at all for martins : May God bless and help you and may your martin colony be re established, grow and prosper
Thurman seber

[wyatt]

As for me, I know that I don't have Starlings at my location. I only have one round hole left, and I wish I had not felt so pressured to convert to SREH. I will probably go back to more round holes because I enjoy watching the females stick their heads out of the round holes to watch the world, and I think the martins enjoy that too. I don't get to see that with the SREH. The one remaining round hole that I have is taken first, has the first eggs, and has a high success rate. I will agree that SREH should be the standard because most people have a Starling problem, but to say that there is absolutely no use for a round hole on any martin cavity is a bit strong. I just wish I could post pictures of my round holes without feeling like I'm going to be attacked for using them when I know that they are safe at my location.