AGAINST LOW ENTRY HOLES.

[blanchar40]

AGAINST LOW ENTRY HOLES.

I think it is a real problem when the nest level is equal to or above the entry hole. I see some of the new gourd & house designs make this likely to happen.If you have a female that is a real builder then it is going to happen. 2wk old Martins in this environment are easily pushed or pulled from the cavity. I'M seeing a lot more jumpers with some of the new gourd designs and I think those configured with low entry holes are are adding to the problem. I invite any observations - Pro or Con on this subject.

I think this should be considered by any rookies just getting started as Martin landlords.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I am completely FOR low entrance holes. If you make the holes up higher, then many martins like to fill the cavity up level with the hole. On a large cavity, they maybe cannot fill it level due to the amount of nesting material required, but most of them try. That makes me think that the martins like to walk in and walk out.

If you have high entrance holes, some people use an inner porch to make it easier for the martins to exit. If you do this, the martins must fly or hop up there, and thats a lot more work for the females. The females probably prefer to feed the older babies at the entrance rather than going in thru the entrance, hopping down, flying back up to the entrance, and then flying away for more. Its so much easier for them to feed the babies if they don't need to enter the cavity.

I have always considered horizontally deep cavities a plus, but I never have liked deep vertical cavities. If you have a deep vertical cavity, then the martins probably prefer to climb up like they probably had to do in woodpecker holes. If you put the hole up high in manmade cavities, the martins probably will have no way to climb up, they will be forced to fly up, and that doesn't seem to me like a good thing

When I use small gourds and long tunnels, the martins build the nest up high above the entrance hole. I don't know why, but this may be a way for them to feel safe, they want to be hidden. If they like them up high, and if they build them up high, then who are we to question their wisdom. They probably know whats best for them.

I disagree with the idea that the babies will get pushed out and get pulled out. Some of that will surely happen, but I have not had a problem with that. I use gourds with tunnels and porches. The babies come to the entrance during feeding time, but then never get on the porches until its about fledging time. If they come on the porches, it may be a good idea to check them, they may not have parents, they may be starving. Its very unusual for me to see any on porches.

If you saw a lot more jumpers last year, it was probably due to the weather. We had a very dry hot summer here, and many people thru out the martin areas reported an excess of jumpers last year. We can't blame the gourds if the weather is causing them to jump.

[John Miller]

I don't have experience with the gourds with low entrances -- doesn't seem like it would be much different from a house cavity. In house cavities, I have had unfeathered babies crawl out..but only a few. Maybe this is what you are seeing in the gourds, or if the gourds are moving back and forth a lot in high wind, babies and eggs could get rocked out.

But I see no evidence of martins building up the nests to the entrances in deep gourds. Maybe it's a "deep South" thing. I use many super gourds and excluder gourds with tunnels or porches inside and out. Most of my martins in gourds just make a depression in the pre-nest material of pine needles and add green leaves.

John M

[Steve Kroenke]

I am all FOR vertically deep cavities in natural gourds and rustic wooden boxes. The interior substrate needs to be coarse so that martins can easily climb up to the entrance from the bottom. This is similar to woodpecker cavities. I used vertically deep gourds for many years and not a single female built her nest to the entrance hole. My entrances were cut anywhere from 6 to 10 inches above the gourd bottoms. I built pre-nests of about 3 inches thick and the martins only added some leaves to the nest bowl. All nests were much lower down in the gourds and out of view and reach of owls, hawks and crows.

I also use horizontally shallow cavities on houses, some naturals, and various commercial plastic gourds and the martins do fine in them for the most part. In these cavities the entrances are cut anywhere from about an inch to 4 inches above the bottoms.

Here are some pros for using vertically deep cavities:

(1) Much safer from predators, particularly from the long legs of barred and great horned owls. When the owl reaches in a vertically deep cavity, his foot for the most part may be grabbing the empty airspace of the open area ABOVE the actual nest site. Of course, this depends on the depth of the cavity. It is more physically difficult for him to twist his leg vertically downward. He has a harder time reaching the actual nest and clutching and pulling nesting material that will greatly frighten adult martins. Deep horizontal cavities still allow the long legs of the owl to reach straight into the nest chamber and grab nesting material, disturbing the martins and eventually hooking terrified adults and their young. However, deep vertical compartments would NOT stop adult martins from panicking and trying to fly out the entrance hole, particularly if the owl is shaking the gourd or house. Probably nothing would. But the babies may be more protected. Also, the inside nest contents in vertically deep cavities are not nearly as visible to the eyes of owls as the nests in horizontally shallow compartment/gourds with a straight line view to the back. Owls use both sight and sound to predate martins.

(2) Would significantly reduce the chances of eggs accidentally rolling out the entrance hole as the martins exit their nests. This can also occur if martins are fighting inside the nest. Eggs may be dislocated for various reasons from the nest bowl in houses when martins build their nests level with the bottom of shallow entrance holes.

(3) May encourage young martins to remain deeper in their nest cavity as they wait for their parents to bring food. This may discourage large well feathered out young from prematurely exiting or reduce the chances of them being pushed out of nest holes by other babies during feeding time. I saw this positive attribute of vertical deep natural gourds/wooden single unit houses in my colonies.

(4) May give any mate hunting female martin a greater sense of security because of the darkness and seclusion of such a deep cavity thereby encouraging her to accept the male that controls the territory.

(5) May be cooler in the summer because hot air rises and would tend to escape out the entrance hole. Woodpecker cavities are excavated where the entrance hole is basically a tight tunnel that gradually enlarges toward the bottom. Such a cavity channels hot air directly from the nest bowl right out the hole. In shallow cavities, the hot air will rise to the top and tends to stay there and circulate inside the cavity unless sufficient air vents are provided.

(6) May provide a better environment for building more secure nest foundations since the entrance hole is farther away from the nest site bottom. Martins could add more nest material that would not partially block the entrance hole and may eliminate the mud dam barrier sometimes seen bordering nests in the shallow house compartments. In my vertically deep natural gourds/single unit wooden houses with entrance holes cut 6 or more inches above the bottom, the nests were typically 2 to 3 inches thick. No mud dams were ever built in such cavities and no nests were built all the way up to the bottom of the entrance hole.

(7) Vertically deep cavities provide protection to small martin nestlings and minimize the chances that SY males can remove them. In my vertically deep gourds, I have never seen SY males succeed in carrying martin nestlings from the nest bottom out the nest entrance.

(8) Deep vertical cavities may activate stored genetic memories from the martin’s ancestral past and thereby function as an attractant. This may be just an extension of the darkness and seclusion factor.

So there are many pros to using vertically deep cavities in natural gourds or wooden houses where the interior surface is rustic and allows martins to use their sharp nails to climb up to the entrances. And martins for the most part do just fine in cavities where the entrances are cut lower down. Both entrance hole configurations are appropriate depending on the type of cavity. Vertically deep cavities may more offer more protection to the eggs/young than cavities with the entrance cut real low down where the nest contents are clearly visible from the outside. Nests that are out of view/reach of predators are safer.

Steve

[Guest]

I have been using shallow gourds for some time now with none of the negatives that you suspect. I don't have young exiting the gourd before fledging time. Maybe the "jumpers" are being predated by an SY male?

I really don't understand what you mean by having a female that's a "real builder". Would she still be nest building when the young are 2 weeks old?

I have seen many times that nests built in deeper gourds are filled with more nest material than shallow gourds. I also see most shallow gourd nests that have a considerable berm built between the entrance and the nest bowl.

I don't know that I've ever seen an egg that was accidentally rolled to the entrance. The only eggs I've found near an entrance were not viable and were being discarded.

I regularly discuss modification and housing improvement issues with other landlords and I don't remember anyone ever having this kind of problem with shallow gourds before.

[Scully]

I am familiar with the problem as Blanchar40 describes it.

Hanging our gourds on lengths of 1/4" allthread rod as we do, entrance facing outwards, it is common for the rods to droop somewhat so that the entrance is inclined slightly downwards (look at the Big Bo w/tunnel entrance facting away at the far left).



Let me say that the Big Bo might be my favorite gourd, and I really like the tunnel entrances, but that set up does put the entrance low to the floor. If the entrance side is leaning down somewhat the martins will pile up their nest high in front to create the nest cup (see pic), creating a situation where there is a downward incline to the entrance from the top edge of the nest.



I think the solution is to make sure the gourd doesn't hang entrance-down, as Big Bos with tunnel netrances are wont to do because of the weight of the tunnel projecting out front.

Mike Scully

[Scott D.- La]

I have never had a problem....... course my stuff is level the way it should be. I could see the problem with those bending hanging rods and would replace that with some stiffer ones that would not bend down. That would drive me nuts looking at that all the time.

[birdy girl]

We use tunnels on most of our gourds and put them at a level where they will be higher entry holes. We have some plastic gourds ( will not mention the kind) that have lower entry holes. It seems that after the nest is made and the first egg is laid it is usually down on the hard bottom with very little or no nesting material under the eggs and we always have to remove egg or eggs and add nesting material. We add nesting material before putting up all gourds and always keep nesting material on the ground. It seems that this might cause the eggs to break being on the hard plastic bottom. Also we have the same problem with our T-14 nest boxes. The eggs seem to always have very little or no nesting material under the eggs. We also have to had additional material under the eggs. I prefer the higher entry holes also to me it seem to be safer for the martins because they are not in view of the entry hole for preditors to see. We have only had one jumper in 5 years and hope we don't have any this year.

[John Miller]

I said my two cents earlier..indulge another round.

There are many variables to consider. I strongly agree with Steve that higher entrances in general create a deep, safe nest pocket. I did find one nest yesterday in an "excluder gourd" where the martins built up the nest to the entrance -- one of 24 excluder or super gourds I'm using. All the others, the martin nests stay lower with little risk of fall outs and the babies scramble underneath the interior porch when you do a nest check, and I assume if an owl threatened.

Many housing deficiencies in combination with a low entrance hole may cause fallouts: no tunnel; a gourd that is not fixed or is light-weight and swings front to back in the wind, especially if the motion is jerky; a house compartment (also low hole) with no nest tray or a tray with a low front; poor nests, sometimes because of interior slickness (gourd or house) so the nest falls apart; a gourd, as others noted, that tilts forward.

So look at the overall cavity.

John M

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

John, I use longer tunnels on all of my gourds, and I never have a problem with fallouts. Even when my gourds were on wires, I never had a fallout problem, and I never did hang my gourds swinging from front to back since I started to use tunnels about 8 years ago. Now all of my gourds are stationary. I suppose that fallouts are a function of how the equipment and gourd racks are made and how the gourds are hung.

It just doesn't appeal to me to hang gourds by wires where there are higher winds, that seems like the wrong way to hang them.

I will again emphasise that martins love tunnels and porches, and then mounting the gourds stationary solves all the negatives that have been posted. There are better ways to do things, and then there are ways that are not so good. Along this line, there is no uniformity in hanging gourds among the manufacturing companies. There are some gourd racks available where the gourds and poles match each other. This is a desirable way to purchase equipment.

Basically now there are so many mismatches, and I feel sorry for the people that are not handy with tools, most of the equipment made and sold leads to mismatches. I can modify it to make it work, but there again, I have the tools and equipment to do so. By mismatches, I mean that its difficult to modify them so that the gourds do not swing, so that the gourds do not hang at an angle, often the arms sag after the gourds are hung, and the tunnels are not easy to mount on the gourds. It is especially a problem with new landlords

About the fallouts, at my place, most of the fallouts should not be called fallouts, they are PULLED OUT or KNOCKED OFF by other martins. When the babies fledge, the first one flies, and the second is sitting outside or near the entrance, then other young martins go there and try to encourage them to fly, they pull on them, and try to knock them off the porches.

[Scully]

Difference in viewpoints.... I would go to lengths to ensure that gourds DO swing, side to side at least.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Scully, if you like the gourds to swing, then what do you think about the houses, do you mount them so that they swing?...just kidding, but the houses and woodpecker holes don't swing much...whats the difference?

I mounted my gourds stationary so that the owls would not play volleyball with them. Owls fly into them, making the gourds swing like crazy, they often get the martins to flush when they do that. That is a method that the owls quickly learn.

[Scully]

I still follow the old saw that S&S like them less if they swing, which appears to be somewhat true.

Mostly, I'm seeing martins successfully nest in so very many locations around here (including downward'facing light fixtures, or so I'm told at Sea World here in town) that I'm thinking we worry a whole lot more than the martins do.

For example, having seen an number of them up close these past few years, I'm convinced there are few designs WORSE than the traditional 12 room, round hole, 6x6 martin house with porches.

Yet around here at least, martins are common, and those houses are the staff of life for our local martin population.


And tools? Hey, I LIKE our martin set ups... they've been turning out well over a hundred martins every year for twelve years now A triumph of low-budget productivity.

And, very importantly for data-collection purposes... with just eight gourds per pole there is less problem with just one fledging brood holding up nest checks on all the rest.


Not to worry though, next year I believe we are going high tech, with those upscale crank-down martin poles capable of holding 24 gourds. I personally can wrestle down our overloaded Carrol telescoping poles no problem, but sooner or later someone else is gonna have to take over.


I am however also going to put up some inexpensive houses like S&K's on their poles for demonstration purposes.

Few people around these parts have $600-$800 to spend on state-of-the-art poles and gourds, if they can lay out even $150 for a bird house they're doing good.


Mike Scully

[Scott D.- La]

Like I stated before, I have never had a problem and use many shallow gourds including the new Troyer Vertical gourd, have tunnels on everything and use solid/level mounting practices. I would say 90% or more of the gourds usually have huge, high nest. I wonder.... since I prenest and have large amounts on pinestraw available, if that is why they make such nice, huge nest. I can only think of a few times when I had small nest and was usually late nesting SY birds. This can happen in shallow or deep gourds. I have even had nest in deep gourds where so much material is added it came above the entrance hole like they do in the shallow gourds. It really makes me think it's because of the huge amount of pinestraw that I have piled up for them and that I use a lot in my garden as well that they take. As for as babies on the ground and on the porches, I have never had that problem either. If the gourds and houses are waterproof, properly vented, parasite free, mounted properly, and they are being fed by the parents, under normal weather patterns everything should go well, if not... there has to be a issue that is going unchecked and that goes back to nest checks and good management practices to find problems before they get out of hand. As far as preference, I guess...... since I have a strong population of Martins and have good luck with shallow and deep gourds, it does not really matter in my case and use what I can afford at the time. Of course...... there seems to be variables in different parts of the country as to what works best in a given area and may not apply in a broad scheme. So.... use what your having success with and don't assume that others are having the same problems as you are. Broad based assumptions are never a good thing in my experience.

[Matt F.]

I'm convinced there are few designs WORSE than the traditional 12 room, round hole, 6x6 martin house with porches.

To be more specific, I'd like to add that round hole, 6"X6" Martin houses, that do not raise and lower vertically, do not have easy compartment access, and are not aluminum, are the worst in that category.
You have to admit, even though aluminum, round hole, 6"X6" Martin houses, that have easy compartment access, and that raise and lower vertically, certainly have room for improvement, the fact that they:

- are generally not accepted by starlings
- last indefinitely
- raise and lower vertically, and easily
- provide easy compartment access

definitely puts them ahead of a lot of housing out there.

[Scully]

- are generally not accepted by starlings



Matt I emphasized this part because I believe the 6" x 6" cavity was in its way a Godsend for the martin. If starlings liked that cavity size I believe we would have very few purple martins at all anywhere today.

But besides the exposure to predators and the propensity of large young to leave the nest cavity, such shallow cavities seem exceedingly vulnerable to the depredations of SY martins on eggs and small young.

One neglected house I am watching now has SIX clutches of eggs or broods of young. How that many martins are going to successfully fledge from that old house I can't imagine.

Mike Scully

[blanchar40]

Fantastic input - It has really helped me get my mind around this problem.

I consider myself to be a knowledgeable backyard birder. I have 4 martin racks that contain a total of 24 plastic gourds. For 28 yrs I dabbled with wooden houses and Naturral gourds. 8 yrs ago I converted everything to large plastic w/crescent entries because the egg to fledge ratio doubled over the old fashioned way. I have experimented with most of the new gourds and tried all of the new entry wholes ,plus, I have experimented w/ some of the tunnels. I am a senior citizen who loves to mentor new birders and work hard on converting the old time natural gourd landlords to the new technologies. A couple of the senior citizens that I mentor went out on their own and expanded using a cheaper gourd that when configured w/crescent entry places the entry hole in the lower 1/3 of the gourd then a liner is added with a little nest materiel and the nest cup is higher than the entry hole. These are senior citizens with a hobby and are not going to invest in tunnels and rigid mounts.

I hadn't thought about this before but think the wind and swinging gourds may be part of the problem, plus, it may account for some of the other unexplained adverse events. This year I also, replaced, 8 productive gourds purchased in 2002 with the new low entry gourds because I wanted inspection ports & porches. These new low entry gourds are the most popular with the female martins and there is constant fighting and confusion at these new gourds which may contribute to the problem.

However, the total egg count is down significantly at this rack and fledge count is going to be a least 10 less than my 7 yr average for this rack. Next year this rack will have 8 new Excluders w/cresent purchased from the PMCA store.

New Marin landlords and back yard birders should only buy gourds that you find in the PMCA catalog. Don't go cheap because the baby birds are going to suffer for it. Got to find some balance between attracting Martins & raising Martins. This can be a great & productive hobby for disabled and seniors but it has to stay simple.

Thanks everybody - great conversation - it really helped

[Scully]

New Marin landlords and back yard birders should only buy gourds that you find in the PMCA catalog.

While the PMCA sells quality stuff, let us not forget the 600 pound gorilla in the room..... S&K products.


High zoot equipment is common to us dedicated Martineers who post here...

...but 99% of the martin housing out there was built on a budget. "Normal" people actually don't spend $500+ on bird houses.


NO ONE has done more to bring well thought-out state of the art designs at affordable prices to discount stores all across America than has S&K.

I would be perfectly happy doing all my martineering with Big Bos for example, for about half the cost of some gourd designs.

And MOST of the new martin housing going up around here? (not enough!).... most of it is S&K.

YMMV

Mike Scully

(who has absolutely NO financial affiliation with S&K )

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

blanchar40, I have mostly natural gourds, but also have a lot of s&k gourds, and I see no difference in the fledge rate. I too support the PMCA and encourage other people to support it, but I think your analysis about fledge rate is completely a political issue. I wish the politics would stay out of any discussion. Undoubtedly, your analysis does not include a large enough sample to be meaningful.

(and I have absolutely no financila affiliation with s&k)

[Guest]

blanchar,
I think your conclusions are based on misdiagnosis of whatever problem you are encountering. I'm still not sure what the problem is from your description of it. I'm not even sure if it is real or just suspected. But what I know for sure is that no one else, to my knowledge, is reporting, suspecting, or experiencing this problem with properly-installed lower entry gourds.

I'm glad you support this organization's store and I wish you good luck with your colony. But to even suggest that it is the only place to buy quality equipment is absurd.