I am requesting input from those who have and are knowledgeable with electric fence chargers. My concern is about the transfer to the ground (earth) for a skinny immature ratsnake. Would the weight of this reptile on dry grass be enough to provide a good shock to one?
I am considering what method to use and whether it might be best to wind the ground AND the hot wire in spirals separated by say an inch or so. I'd be using 3" or 4" PVC as the insulator, if that matters. I know I'd have to make some grooves to hole the wires or superglue dots every so often.
I'd also be interested to hear if this method would be viable if the voltage were as high as 5KV. I don't want the wires arcing over to each other in the air.
If I used an earth ground only, I could put the ground rod in the center of the rack systems so that the farthest pole would be less than 20 ft from the rod.
Looking forward to your responses,
dm
Question re rigging pole with fence charger
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
I have always used the electric fence without a nearby ground wire, I always depended upon the earth to be the ground. I have the ground stake only at the charger. I suggest that you try it that way, and you should get zapped very good! Technically, many people doubt this, the fence charger works better on dry ground than it does on wet ground according to the people that make them.
If you have a good ground stake, it should work fine unless the fence is longer than 1000ft to 1300 ft in dry sand or frozen ground. For a martin house hookup, a good ground stake is all that you need in my opinion. On dry grass, I just think that the snake would still get zapped.
You could always put a small wire tied to a small ground stake at each pole to fix the dry grass problem. There is no need to run a long ground wire if you use ground stakes at the pole. However, you do need a ground stake at the fence charger. Or you could put a ground stake at the center of your poles, as long as you also have one at the charger.
If you have a good ground stake, it should work fine unless the fence is longer than 1000ft to 1300 ft in dry sand or frozen ground. For a martin house hookup, a good ground stake is all that you need in my opinion. On dry grass, I just think that the snake would still get zapped.
You could always put a small wire tied to a small ground stake at each pole to fix the dry grass problem. There is no need to run a long ground wire if you use ground stakes at the pole. However, you do need a ground stake at the fence charger. Or you could put a ground stake at the center of your poles, as long as you also have one at the charger.
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Guest
Dwight,I have been in the electrical business all of my working career (45 years)and I really hate to see people mess with it that have to ask questions.I'm not saying you don't know the hazards but electricity kills in the wrong hands so I don't give advice.
I will say fence chargers are used and safely too but should be used with caution and care and manufacturers notations should be adhered to..
I personal would have the hot wire above a piece of PVC so that small children could not inadvertantly touch it.
Good luck and stay safe all who are contemplating this snake prevention method.
dick
I will say fence chargers are used and safely too but should be used with caution and care and manufacturers notations should be adhered to..
I personal would have the hot wire above a piece of PVC so that small children could not inadvertantly touch it.
Good luck and stay safe all who are contemplating this snake prevention method.
dick
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~Ray~Gingerich
- Posts: 2122
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: Delaware/Dover
My charger will electrify many miles of fence. Near the charger location I have 3 metal ground stakes driven into the ground about 6 ft. apart, connected to each other with bare copper wire and then up to the charger. On the output side I ran a single THHN 12 GA. wire underground encased inside PVC piping to my bird houses. The charger sends out a one second shock then a slight quarter second break in the current. It will give a good jolt if touched but it's not something you can't get away from because of the break sequence, I have been shocked many times, sometimes with a spark and snapping noise depending on how you get in contact with the wire. Actually I don't think it would kill anything either big or small unless for some odd reason couldn't get away from it during the breaks in sequence and was shocked repeatedly. If you set something like this up for your bird houses you need to keep the bare charged wires down low enough so what ever is trying to get up your poles still has some contact with the ground when the wire is touched. You also need to keep the charged wire insulated from the pole or the ground.
~Ray~ Gingerich
1999 1pair, 2006 2 pair, 2008 2 pair,
2009 23 pair, 2010 39 pair, 2011 67 pair,
2012 115 pair, 2013 160 pair,
2014 152 pair, 2015 174 pair, 2016 178 pair
2017 187 pair, 2018 200 pair, 2019 171pair
2020 233 pair
1999 1pair, 2006 2 pair, 2008 2 pair,
2009 23 pair, 2010 39 pair, 2011 67 pair,
2012 115 pair, 2013 160 pair,
2014 152 pair, 2015 174 pair, 2016 178 pair
2017 187 pair, 2018 200 pair, 2019 171pair
2020 233 pair
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
Here is another option, rather than having the hot wire near the earth as Ray suggested. His method is a good way to do it however.
I have an underground wire going from the charger to each pole. At the pole, I have the wire going up inside the pvc pipe, then back down the inside of the pvc pipe (a loop up the pipe), and then to the next pole.
Here is my option: My hot wire is going around the top of the pvc pipe, it is some copper wire attached to the insulated underground wire. I strip off about 1in of the insulation, and attach the hot wire to the insulated wire securely and cover it with caulk. The hot wire is 4ft above the ground.
The ground is the metal pole. If anything tries to climb the pvc pipe, it must go over the hot wire and will get shocked as soon as it touches the metal pole. Most likely, the animal will touch both at the same time because it would be holding tightly to the pvc.
By having the hot wire at the top of the pipe, most people and animals will never touch it, children can play around it, dogs can pee on the pvc pipe, and they will not get shocked. Now when you work on the housing, its best to turn off the charger so that you do not accidentally get shocked.
Susan, as the others have said, the voltage is very high, and the current is very low. It will kill small lizards, toads, etc if the lizard happens to crawl over and touch both. I have never seen it kill any other kind of things. I have put a dead snake that I just took out of netting (I had to kill it to remove it) on top of the electric fence and it wiggled like crazy, even with it being dead for about 15 minutes. That dead snake wiggling like that was proof that the shock will surely bother a snake.
Susan, an answer to your question, a low voltage system like you may use for a doggie fence may not stop a racoon or large snake, the voltage is too low. A person in Louisiana report that a snake got past such a doggie fence. I suggest a cattle charger, they do work, and the price is not very much higher at farm stores.
A good option that some people use is a good solar fence charger, then you may not need much underground wire. The people that use solar fence chargers report that they have never had anything go up the poles when they used the solar charger.
I have an underground wire going from the charger to each pole. At the pole, I have the wire going up inside the pvc pipe, then back down the inside of the pvc pipe (a loop up the pipe), and then to the next pole.
Here is my option: My hot wire is going around the top of the pvc pipe, it is some copper wire attached to the insulated underground wire. I strip off about 1in of the insulation, and attach the hot wire to the insulated wire securely and cover it with caulk. The hot wire is 4ft above the ground.
The ground is the metal pole. If anything tries to climb the pvc pipe, it must go over the hot wire and will get shocked as soon as it touches the metal pole. Most likely, the animal will touch both at the same time because it would be holding tightly to the pvc.
By having the hot wire at the top of the pipe, most people and animals will never touch it, children can play around it, dogs can pee on the pvc pipe, and they will not get shocked. Now when you work on the housing, its best to turn off the charger so that you do not accidentally get shocked.
Susan, as the others have said, the voltage is very high, and the current is very low. It will kill small lizards, toads, etc if the lizard happens to crawl over and touch both. I have never seen it kill any other kind of things. I have put a dead snake that I just took out of netting (I had to kill it to remove it) on top of the electric fence and it wiggled like crazy, even with it being dead for about 15 minutes. That dead snake wiggling like that was proof that the shock will surely bother a snake.
Susan, an answer to your question, a low voltage system like you may use for a doggie fence may not stop a racoon or large snake, the voltage is too low. A person in Louisiana report that a snake got past such a doggie fence. I suggest a cattle charger, they do work, and the price is not very much higher at farm stores.
A good option that some people use is a good solar fence charger, then you may not need much underground wire. The people that use solar fence chargers report that they have never had anything go up the poles when they used the solar charger.
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Guest
thanks to all who have responded so far.
I hope more landlords will provide their experience to this thread.
Dick, my question was prompted from material provided by the manufacturer which shows the option of running a ground wire parallel to the hot on a livestock fence. I was not just coming up with wild and dangerous scenarios. I would think you know me somewhat better than that.
To further add to Dick's warnings, I would test systems like this with meters only. If you must test hands-on, may I recommend using bare feet and touching the hot wire with a foot. Even a few milliamps are enough to stop the human heart. Shocks above the waist should be avoided. Please feel free to provide your own humor at this point.
I hope more landlords will provide their experience to this thread.
Dick, my question was prompted from material provided by the manufacturer which shows the option of running a ground wire parallel to the hot on a livestock fence. I was not just coming up with wild and dangerous scenarios. I would think you know me somewhat better than that.
To further add to Dick's warnings, I would test systems like this with meters only. If you must test hands-on, may I recommend using bare feet and touching the hot wire with a foot. Even a few milliamps are enough to stop the human heart. Shocks above the waist should be avoided. Please feel free to provide your own humor at this point.
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Guest
Excellent safety advice above, please listen to it.
How about using a 9 volt battery as a power source for Dwight's original PVC design ?
I think this would work on a garden snake and be much easier and safer.
How about using a 9 volt battery as a power source for Dwight's original PVC design ?
I think this would work on a garden snake and be much easier and safer.
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Guest
Not singling anyone out Dwight just trying to make folks aware who don't know not necessarily you or anyone in particular.To be frank I am scared to death of electricity and when you see people get hideous scars for life with terrible burns and death in one case you become more so afraid of this stuff.Its an awaking to see a co worker laughing and joking one minute and on the ground screaming ,I'M DEAD,I'M DEAD the next.It will make you see this thing called electricity in a different light.
Emil has as good approach as can be gotten I believe.
Ouch on the humor LOL
dick
Emil has as good approach as can be gotten I believe.
Ouch on the humor LOL
dick
A 9 volt battery won't work. It takes many volts to deter snakes or coons, or cats or any other critter that wants an easy free meal. A small pet charger probably won't stop one. I remember one story where a battery powered charger didn't stop a snake. Electric fence chargers are very safe to use. In this lawsuit crazed society we live in, the charger manufacturers wouldn't last long if the chargers they make weren't safe and pretty much idiot proof. We have cattle and a charger deisgned to power 200 miles of fence. It powers about 3 miles of fence and my Martin poles. I doubt anyone would go out and buy a charger that powerful to use on a Martin pole. I have been zapped by our fencer many times, and although more cautious around it, no worse for the wear.
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
I agree with Brad, why would somebody want to mess around experimenting with a low voltage system, when the cattle electric fence charger works good, is safe, and relatively cheap, has been tried, tested, and used?
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Guest
Pratts,ThePratts wrote: How about using a 9 volt battery as a power source for Dwight's original PVC design ?
I think this would work on a garden snake and be much easier and safer.
I don't know much about garden snakes but they are not the problem. It is 5-6 ft Texas Black Ratsnakes and I can almost guarantee that a hungry one would not stop for 9V of DC current. There are a lot of fence chargers that run off marine batteries of anywhere from 4V to 12V but the charger's transformers dramatically increase the voltage up into the KV range, up to 10KV or more. Racoons are the others main varmint we"re trying to stop.
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Guest
Dick,dicklaxt wrote: To be frank I am scared to death of electricity
dick
I kinda feel the same way about automobiles. Both the ones I drive and the ones driven around me.
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Guest
Fence chargers are built with high voltage and low amperage. All that are designed for livestock have a pinger that sends a charge for less than one second and broken by a wait time before sending the next charge. By having the broken signal, it will not damage a person or animal like a steady current from a wall outlet that is a continuous current. The shock received by touching a fence wire will cause nerves to contract and make the person or animal that comes in contact to jerk back away and avoid touching the wire again. Most livestock and dogs and cats will not touch the wire and getting shocked more than twice before totally avoiding the wire forever.
I have found that I use a 4 inch plastic pipe around the pole, and wrap 2 wires about 2 inches apart in a spiral around the pipe, similar to a barber pole. The wire can be connected to the pipe with short screws that do not go all the way thru the pipe, or epoxy in spots. Do not allow the 2 wires to contact. I run the hot wire up the inside of the pipe and make a connection to one of the wires at the top, and the other wire I run to a ground stake using a rod of copper or iron, such as a spike or a piece of reinforcement rod. A coon or cat trying to climb the pole will vault off the pole about 6 feet when paws make contact with both wires, and rarely try to climb the pole again. A child will only touch the pole once and will not likely touch it again, and the instant shock wont harm them.
I have found that I use a 4 inch plastic pipe around the pole, and wrap 2 wires about 2 inches apart in a spiral around the pipe, similar to a barber pole. The wire can be connected to the pipe with short screws that do not go all the way thru the pipe, or epoxy in spots. Do not allow the 2 wires to contact. I run the hot wire up the inside of the pipe and make a connection to one of the wires at the top, and the other wire I run to a ground stake using a rod of copper or iron, such as a spike or a piece of reinforcement rod. A coon or cat trying to climb the pole will vault off the pole about 6 feet when paws make contact with both wires, and rarely try to climb the pole again. A child will only touch the pole once and will not likely touch it again, and the instant shock wont harm them.
I have used a low profile pvc guard now for several years and it has been 100% sucessful. The metal pole set in cement is an excellent ground. I am an electrician and live on a farm so I've had experience with both. Racoons have become a real pest since no one traps anymore because fur prices are so low. We also have plenty of rat snakes. Let me assure you snakes are very sensitive to a fence charger. Ask anyone who has lived on a farm. More often than not when you notice the charger not working and walk the fence to locate the problem you will find a dead snake grounding the charger out. As for racoons it takes a fence charger to penetrate thru their fur,but it will do a good job. When a racoon kills a bird it will bite the wings off and you will find them when mowing. I find them frequently around some of our trees,but not around the martin poles. I placed some pictures of the guard on the forum before but was in a hurry. I'll make one and take pictures thru the whole process and post it. Most anyone that has lived around a farm has been shocked by an electric fence at one time or another. It's not my favorite passtime but I've never heard of anyone severely injured. I burried my wire about 4 inches deep and it is only exposed about 12 to 14 inches on the pole. I had a racoon climb my pole with a decoy on it that was unprotected and the decoy had muddy footprints on it but he was unsuccessful on the other poles so I'm very confident in the system. I always unplug my charger when we have small children around or lowering the houses or do the mowing. I'm sure with the thousands of miles of electric fence around the country if they weren't safe we would see lawyer commercials on tv wanting to represent you.
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Guest
I'm a life long electrician too.
I didnt read all the post but if you place the bare live wire and the bare ground wire an inch or so a part in a sprial around the PVC pipe ,they WILL short out during a rain.
I didnt read all the post but if you place the bare live wire and the bare ground wire an inch or so a part in a sprial around the PVC pipe ,they WILL short out during a rain.
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~Ray~Gingerich
- Posts: 2122
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: Delaware/Dover
That's right , the ground wire should be run to grounding rods near the charger, and one hot wire to the bird house pole with an insulating spacer to keep it off the pole itself. The installation instructions call for 3 grounding rods 10 ft apart. I picked up a small $20.00 charger for my goat fence and only drove in one 8 ft. grounding rod, seems to works out good so maybe 3 rods is overkill.
~Ray~ Gingerich
1999 1pair, 2006 2 pair, 2008 2 pair,
2009 23 pair, 2010 39 pair, 2011 67 pair,
2012 115 pair, 2013 160 pair,
2014 152 pair, 2015 174 pair, 2016 178 pair
2017 187 pair, 2018 200 pair, 2019 171pair
2020 233 pair
1999 1pair, 2006 2 pair, 2008 2 pair,
2009 23 pair, 2010 39 pair, 2011 67 pair,
2012 115 pair, 2013 160 pair,
2014 152 pair, 2015 174 pair, 2016 178 pair
2017 187 pair, 2018 200 pair, 2019 171pair
2020 233 pair