Do I need a BB reposition? Cohabitation issues

[CMF]

The ’09 season has started off somewhat disappointing for my home site. Late in ’07 we moved to a new house and started fresh in ‘08 and in May of that year, we had a single pair that fledged two. We had many low flyovers of subbies and adults from neighboring colonies but only had the pair. I was very happy to get them for the first year at a new residence. For ’09 I had great expectations for big season but so far, last years birds have been a no show and I have not had much low level flyby activity. I have decoys and play dawnsong every morn and evening. Nearby colonies have their adults back but subs are not in with them as far as I can see and I look everyday. My main concern is I have a bluebird pair that have claimed one of 8 gourds hanging from my T-14 and have nestlings. I have 4 bluebird boxes in the yard (2 acres) and 2 are claimed plus the gourd! So I have bluebirds everywhere. I observed the bluebirds perch on the top of the martin house in early March (they are year round residents due to winter mealworm feeding) and kept the house sparrows and starlings away. 2 weeks ago I did a nest check and I was surprised to see 6 tiny bluebird young in the nest bowl of a gourd. Since I am in the homestretch for the subbies to claim a T-14 or a gourd, if a martin claims they will be in juxtaposition and will the bluebird thwart the martin(s) from claiming a residence? I can begin a reposition of the gourd via wire to ground shepherd’s hook over time but I’m sure they will continue to use the martin top perch for lookout/observation post. Any suggestions?

Site #2 (remote work location) I reconditioned an abandoned MSS-12, converted to 6 with crescents and added 4 Big-pos with crescents. This new for ‘09 site is on auto and this past week has 2 subbie pairs which have claimed two gourds. Normal starling and sparrow trapping is implemented and doesn’t seem to be an issue.

CMF

[Indiana_Tom]

Hi CMF, By the number of posts I have you can see I am fairly new at this. I had Tree Swallows in one of my gourds, hanging from a T-10. This was before any eggs. I lowered the house, moved the gourd to its own pole about 35ft away. I then covered the house with a sheet for two days. The tree swallows had no problem making the shift. NOTE, this was before the eggs arrived. I still haven't got any martins setting up house but the Tree Swallows don't jump on anything that lands on the house perch now. I will be checking this thread in the morning to see what the experienced landlords say.
I set up a 4 gourd rack in a open field I own and I have a pair of bluebirds perching on it a lot. I saw one go in a gourd and then back out. I paid close attention all day and didn't see it go back in anymore. Hope she decided the place had too much floor space.

Good luck
Tom

[Guest]

CMF - Last year, I had a BB nest box about 30' from my unestablished PM house. The BB had 5 eggs and were using the PM house for a perch. I though this was not a problem until the SY PMs started to show up to check out the house. The BB would not let them near it. They had claimed the PM perch as their own and defended it.

My solution was to take the PM house down and move the BB box 10-15' every day or 2 until it was about 100' away. I also faced the BB box away from the PM house and gave them a new 10' tall perch in front of their house. This did work and I had my first set of breeding PMs ever. Unfortunately, they left the PM house when they lost their eggs to a HOSP.

Good luck!

Here is a link to my post on this subject:
http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewt ... highlight=

[KathyF]

Hi CMF,
I'm hoping Dan Drew may be able to chime in here - he seems to be a good source of info on Bluebirds & TRES. Meanwhile, here is his website on this issue:

http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/E ... gency.html

Good luck!

You might try sending him an email or private message.....

[Indiana_Tom]

Hi Again CMF,

Interesting. I had not thought of it but I guess I fixed that problem all at the same time. The TS moved into a small natural gourd I had hanging under a new T-10. I had ordered Natureline gourds to replace them but had not received them yet. As I said earlier, at first I thought I was the proud landlord of a pair of SYs. When I found out they were TSs, I put up a 10 ft pole and hung the natural gourds off of a fiberglass electric fence rod. This gave the TSs their own perch right above their home. Without realising it, I did something right. They never use the house perch now. and although I haven't got martins, other birds perch on it occasionally and the TS don't mind.

Good luck, hope what you decide works. And I think it was kathy that mentioned Dan Drew. He has a lot of knowledge on this matter.

All the best
Tom

[Dan Drew]

CMF,

The first thing that jumps to my mind is that you might have made the same mistake I did as a rookie... i.e. mistaking a nesting pair of TS (and their fledglings) for purple martins. I do not mean to offend you... and pay no intention if I am mistaken; but the general picture you paint suggests you might have NOT had a successful PM breeding at your site... but rather a successful TS pair. It is a "mistake" that is VERY COMMON, so you need not be ashamed if you have any uncertainty about it.

Regardless of that, it seems to me that you might be describing a site that should no longer be seen as an "established PM breeding site" since it does not sound like you have any "site loyal" returning martins at that site. Remember (if you did indeed have a successful pair at one time) that the trip to Brazil and back is a long and hazardous journey and many martins do not make it back successfully.

The website Kathy F referred to was developed over many years and has been helpful to many wannabe landlords trying to attract purple martins to an UNESTABLISHED sites in "heavy TS or BB territory." Regardless how disappointing it is, you may well be in a situation where your best bet is to execute this protocol as though your site is UNESTABLISHED... i.e. that you are still dealing with TS and/or BB interference. [Please read the entire protocol carefully]

Although many Purple Martin colonies happen "spontaneously" without landlord management of interference, it is my opinion that moving your TS or BB housing FURTHER AWAY from your PM RIG is almost never the cause of success; and it is a strategy that I do not recommend if you are trying to start a new colony where there is TS or BB interference. [Again, I bid you to read the protocol carefully... and to the end.]

As for your Site #2, I do hope you are on your way to success there; but my "caveat" about "making sure" applies there also! Although experts often disagree when trying to identify the birds themselves [Female ASY PM's vs SY-PM's vs TS] it is a very easy thing, even for amateurs, to be sure about the nests. The nests themselves are totally different... with the TS nest being a gorgeous array of feathers, while the martin nest is simply a little nest bowl at first... which the birds later line with green leaves. PM's DO NOT USE FEATHERS! The difference is UNMISTAKABLE; and, again, I hope you will not be offended by this recitation. To spend one or more season mistaken about what bird(s) you have will put you in very good company... including myself.

Please post again to let us know what you decide and how you get along!

Best regards! ~Dan Drew

[CMF]

No offense taken Dan.
Positive ID on subbie pair last season which fledged two of 4 eggs.
Most likely didn't make it through the migration journey.
Definitey no TS in my immediate area.

Last night under the cover of darkness: I lowered the PM rig and plugged the offending BB gourd capturing the Mom & nestlings. Removed the gourd from the rack and placed about 75' away on their own 10' pole. After about 20 minutes I pulled the plug and retired for the night. This morning the mom BB was busy bringing food in to the gourd. So far success but I will monitor closely.
CMF

[Dan Drew]

CMF,

I am glad for you that your "move the gourd" trick was successful. Hopefully you are now configured to protect your PM rig from further invasion by Blue Birds. Actually, though, I wish you had used a little different geometry. I realize "times a-wasting" and the protocol is not something you can master quickly....

BUT...

With mom feeding babies at 75 ft. from your PM rig, your BB pair might be too busy to defend that much territory. So you MIGHT be at risk for another BB invasion. I'll pray that doesn't happen; but don't turn your back on the PM rig if there are still lots of BB around.

Meanwhile, for "future proactive" action, I'd put the designated BB housing between 25 and 35 feet from the PM rig.

Let us know how things turn out!

Dan

[Guest]

Dan,

Your TS information site was extremely helpful to me my first year. Every year since, I have had a TS nesting pair about 30' from my PM site before I put the PM housing up. I happen to be in a TS dense area with some BB. I have 12 BB houses up the current nest count is as follows: 8 TS, 2 BB, 1 Wren, 1 empty (in a wren/wooded location).

Last year, I felt that I had nailed the pre-arrival setup with a TS nest and a BB nest each 30' from the PM site. The BB ended up claiming the PM pole as their perch and wouldn't let the PMs near so I had to move the BB box to about 100' away (link below).

Thanks again for the very helpful site on TS management...

[Dan Drew]

mwolf00,

Quite amazingly, your year-by-year results are very similar to mine... with the same errors and set-backs. It took me 8 years to get a successful PM pair; so it looks like you are going to beat me by 3 years... and I will pray for that.

As for your 2008 observations and actions regarding the BB, I think you might be misinterpreting what happened. The truth is (to use a trite old phrase) you just didn't get "the right martin" to visit. "The right martin" ...one who is truly house-hunting and truly interested in your site... would NOT be run off by a BB who is simply perching atop your rig.

The BB ended up claiming the PM pole as their perch and wouldn't let the PMs near so I had to move the BB box to about 100' away (link below).

Although PM sites often occur spontaneously in TS or BB territory without regard to landlord intervenion or "rules" ...I still stand by the "generalities" (rules?) in the protocol and I would NOT have advised you to move your BB housing further away.

Early in the season, BB and TS might defend a territory as big as 100 ft. ...BUT... their territories shrink as the season goes on; and by the time they are feeding chicks, I have seen a TS pair allow an invasion 35 feet away! [by then it was June in Indiana and too late to attract martins.] So, anyhow, since the "teaching" should go on... and since teaching requires "rules" I think I will stay with the teaching of 25 to 35 feet for the correct geometry.

More importantly, since it appears you are now on the road to success this year, I am eager to hear how you configured and how it went. Perhaps you posted the story elsewhere?? Could you make it part of this thread?

Good luck! ~Dan

[Guest]

Dan,

Thank you for your response. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to reply.

The more attention I pay to this hobby (is "hobby" the right word for this?), the more I realize that I have a lot to learn. Last year, the aggressive defense by the BB took me by complete surprise. It seemed to me that they were acting more like HOSP and I had been trying for so long to get my PM colony established. You very well may be right that the right PMs hadn't found my site yet. I just wanted to do everything that I could to make ANY PMs pick my site.

I do think that your TS emergency page is an excellent resource for all who live in an area where TS and PM co-exist. I am careful to make sure that I follow the rules every year and I have had NO TS issues since I first read your rules. Now the TS barely even notice the PM house when I put it up as they are worried about their nest and eggs when it goes up. I have not even seen the TS inspect the PM house and we have TONS of TS in our field. As you might guess, I do see BB interest in the PM house from time-to-time still and this very well may be due to the fact that I the closest BB nest is about 65' from the PM house and those BB are now busy with their own eggs.

As a matter of fact, the whole TS vs. BB issue has thrown me for a loop this year. I have greatly expanded the number of BB houses that I have up this year and I have actually tried to do regular nest checks on the 12 houses I have up. My confusion comes from the fact that a house that was claimed by TS who feathered the nest and had eggs seem to now have a pair of BB living in it. A hundred feet away, a house that has BB living in it that had BB eggs seems to have been taken oven by TS. It is as if they were participating in a reality show "Trading Spaces" or "Nest Swap". Another BB pair built their nest right on top of a feathered TS nest - you can see the layer of feathers below the BB nest. As I say, I have a lot to learn.

I also pray that I am on the road to success for my PMs this year. I can state that this is my most successful year so far. I will count the year a success if I get one nest's worth of fledglings but that is still a while away as there are still no eggs and only 2 nests. Last year, I only had one nest and it was no where near as well built as the 2 I have this year. The 2 nests have a significant mud dams at their entrances. So significant that I cannot see if there are eggs in the nest. I have to actually reach in to see if I can feel the eggs (which I have not as of yet). Last year, the eggs were laid in the first few days of June so I am hopeful that next week will bring eggs.

I have identified 3 pairs of PMs that seem dedicated to my PM house. Along with those, there are about 6 to 7 other PMs that spend a great deal of time at the site. I am not good at telling the SY males from the females so I am unsure as to who is who. Reading all of the posts about the problems some SY males can cause, I hope that they can all work it out. I do see spats several times a day that end up in 2 PMs locking claws and spiraling to the ground. Once they hit the ground, they split up and both return to the PM house (one usually goes to the perch above the house - I figure he is the "loser" of the spat).

As to what I have done this year to increase my chances of success, I can think of a few things. The first few years, I had a plastic H&K house with SREH. It was located about 120' from the north side of my house. Because of the hill I live on, the top of the PM house was about level with the bottom of my house. The house sat in a swampy area (18" tall grass over a constantly moist base) that I thought the PMs would love.

My first year, I got TS and found this site and your TS emergency page. My second year, I had some interest from SY males late in the season. I had enlarged the SREH on the house and they seemed to like those cavities a lot more. I was hopeful that they were looking for the following season. My third year, I had a tougher battle with HOSP and got the deluxe repeating sparrow trap - catching and killing 12 male and 5 female HOSP in a few months. My fourth year - last year - I added a Trio Mini Castle about 80' from the south side of my house.

The new location differs from the first in several ways. First, this location is uphill from my house so that this PM site is about 25' above the other (I have no idea if this height is significant). Second, this PM site is on the side of the house where my family is most active - the garage is here, the kids shoot basketball and ride bikes here, when my wife and I are working outside, this is our main area of activity. Finally, this site sits at one end of a 400' x 200' of open mowed field. I think that swallows in general love this field. When I mow, I usually see about 10 to 15 TS and BS zipping along over the grass waiting for the bugs. Last week was the first time I can recall seeing PMs included in that mix. Of the 8 BB boxes I have around this field, 6 are occupied by TS. It is not unusual to have 20 or more TS flying around one of the nest boxes when they are all trying to establish housing in the spring.

Last year, I had interest at both sites (about 100 yards apart) and had my first eggs at the new site. I was thrilled to see the first egg laid in the new site. Shortly after, I was disappointed when I found 2 eggs on the ground under the nest with holes pecked into them. Based on the holes, I suspected HOSP attacks. The breeding pair left the house and did not return.

This year I have not put up the original PM house yet. I think that one house will concentrate the PMs better and give them better defense against possible failure. I also did not open all 12 compartments at once. I started with the 6 closest to the house so that I could see what was going on. As more have arrived, I have opened more compartments up to the point that now all are open (including one with a Spare-O-Trap door which caught a male HOSP yesterday). I do have a nesting pair of TS at 25' from the original site and I may put that house up now to give the SY males a place to go where they won't disturb the nesting pairs. I have no idea if that will help or hurt in the long run. As I have said, I have a lot to learn.