Respectable Distance for Tree Swallows?
-
Fred Kaluza~MI
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:40 pm
- Location: Port Huron, Michigan
- Martin Colony History: Tried and tried and had some visitors but...not enough good insects around here to keep them interested.
The martin housing still stands empty, (at least no HOSPS and/or Starlings) and I have managed to attract a pair of Tree Swallows to the yard who seem content to perch on the lines above, the fence next to and the sheperd's hook supporting an extra Natrureline gourd placed 5 feet high about 65 feet away from the Martin housing. Occasionally they will launch off of their perching areas and flit above and then circle outwards around their "area". At times they will range widely enough to make a quick pass by the Martin gourd rack and Trio castle, never landing there though. Does anyone think they would still be inclined to "run-off" any investigating Martins even though they appear comitted to a spot 65 fet away? No Martins seen since my 3 day visitor was here on Apr 15th.
Last edited by Fred Kaluza~MI on Wed May 10, 2006 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Guest
If they are committed to the gourd 65 feet away and they have eggs, they will start becoming less territorial. I notice the more eggs they lay, the less they care about the gourd rack. Once the eggs hatch, they will not have time to pay any attention to your PM housing. If your TS are not committed (layed eggs) to the gourd on the shepherds hook, they are likely to change their minds at anytime and be interested in your PM housing. I currently have 4 nests of TS with eggs. All of the TS around my property hang out at the PM housing sometime throughout the day, but I don't think they are a problem for the PM at this point.
-
stan kostka
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:59 pm
- Location: Washington, Seattle
Hi Fred,
Perhaps it can be explained by behavioral differences between eastern and western birds, and also differences in how nesting cavities are situated, but over the years I have seen many instances that lead me to think the notion of Tree swallows displacing investigating martins may be more one of perception than of fact.
Last year alone I recorded two instances wherein second year martins arrived at new sites and displaced breeding tree swallows. One of these sites ended up with five pairs of SY martins that arrived and displaced at least one and perhaps two pairs of tree swallows. The second pair of tree swallows may have fledged and the martins then used the nest.
The really interesting thing happened at the other first year site, where a solitary pair of SY martins arrived and began harassing a pair of tree swallows that were using one particular cavity. The lone pair of SY martins eventually displaced the tree swallows and successfully fledged young from that particular box. The martins spent the time and energy to displace the tree swallows even though there were several identical vacant nestboxes nearby, all in identical habitat.
Seems reasonable to assume that one of the most attractive things to secondary cavity nesting birds, is the activity of other cavity nesting birds, regardless of species. Call me crazy, but I'm convinced, at least within the way the western nestbox model has developed, that tree swallows nesting in nestboxes intended for martins may be interpreted as a positive development when attempting to establish a new martin colony.
Stan
Perhaps it can be explained by behavioral differences between eastern and western birds, and also differences in how nesting cavities are situated, but over the years I have seen many instances that lead me to think the notion of Tree swallows displacing investigating martins may be more one of perception than of fact.
Last year alone I recorded two instances wherein second year martins arrived at new sites and displaced breeding tree swallows. One of these sites ended up with five pairs of SY martins that arrived and displaced at least one and perhaps two pairs of tree swallows. The second pair of tree swallows may have fledged and the martins then used the nest.
The really interesting thing happened at the other first year site, where a solitary pair of SY martins arrived and began harassing a pair of tree swallows that were using one particular cavity. The lone pair of SY martins eventually displaced the tree swallows and successfully fledged young from that particular box. The martins spent the time and energy to displace the tree swallows even though there were several identical vacant nestboxes nearby, all in identical habitat.
Seems reasonable to assume that one of the most attractive things to secondary cavity nesting birds, is the activity of other cavity nesting birds, regardless of species. Call me crazy, but I'm convinced, at least within the way the western nestbox model has developed, that tree swallows nesting in nestboxes intended for martins may be interpreted as a positive development when attempting to establish a new martin colony.
Stan
-
Guest
Fred,
As you know I can not speak as someone that has hosted an active martin colony. However, I can tell you the experience we have had relating to tree swallows interacting with martins. I agree with Stan regarding their behavior.
Several years ago we had a young male martin that visited our site every day from June 15the through early August. When he first started checking out our aluminum martin housing tree swallows (which we have no shortage of) would dive bomb him as he sat on the top of the house. This infuriated me and I watched closely as they would attack several at a time and the poor martin would duck and dodge. Over several days the martin became less and less intimidated by the swallows and when they did swoop at him it seemed more in fun than anything truly threatening. After the first week the martin would stand his ground on the roof perch totally unfazed by the swallows buzzy around him.
Over the month and a half that the martin visited the house daily he would spend most of his day sitting on the house or inside a compartment with his head sticking out. When he would become aware of other martins in the area he would fly into the sky singing and attempt to bring them back to investigate his bachelor pad, which they frequently did. The visiting martins never seemed put off by the gregarious swallows.
One tree swallow had nested in a gourd hanging from the bottom of the aluminum martin house. To prevent conflicts I made sure the swallows were near and could watch, then I removed the gourd (with babies cheeping away) and hung it from the limb of a small tree about 30 feet away. Within 10 minutes the swallows were feeding the babies in the new location and they went on to fledge just fine. The martin watched the swallow activity with bored disinterest from his perch on the house. We had high hopes that the martin would return to set up a household last spring but he never showed up. I really don't think that the swallows had anything to do with it.
The swallows seem to have a similar relationship to bluebirds. Though the swallows will chase the bluebirds I have never witness any truly aggressive attacks. The bluebirds also seem to understand that this is just the way swallows are - kind of like rambunctious children to be tolerated.
Overall, it would seem to me that martins, swallows, and bluebirds make good neighbors. As long as the swallows don't actually take up residence in the martin housing I don't think that they present a real problem.
Good luck Fred. Just out of curiosity, do you know the distance to the closest active martin colony from your site?
Jeff
As you know I can not speak as someone that has hosted an active martin colony. However, I can tell you the experience we have had relating to tree swallows interacting with martins. I agree with Stan regarding their behavior.
Several years ago we had a young male martin that visited our site every day from June 15the through early August. When he first started checking out our aluminum martin housing tree swallows (which we have no shortage of) would dive bomb him as he sat on the top of the house. This infuriated me and I watched closely as they would attack several at a time and the poor martin would duck and dodge. Over several days the martin became less and less intimidated by the swallows and when they did swoop at him it seemed more in fun than anything truly threatening. After the first week the martin would stand his ground on the roof perch totally unfazed by the swallows buzzy around him.
Over the month and a half that the martin visited the house daily he would spend most of his day sitting on the house or inside a compartment with his head sticking out. When he would become aware of other martins in the area he would fly into the sky singing and attempt to bring them back to investigate his bachelor pad, which they frequently did. The visiting martins never seemed put off by the gregarious swallows.
One tree swallow had nested in a gourd hanging from the bottom of the aluminum martin house. To prevent conflicts I made sure the swallows were near and could watch, then I removed the gourd (with babies cheeping away) and hung it from the limb of a small tree about 30 feet away. Within 10 minutes the swallows were feeding the babies in the new location and they went on to fledge just fine. The martin watched the swallow activity with bored disinterest from his perch on the house. We had high hopes that the martin would return to set up a household last spring but he never showed up. I really don't think that the swallows had anything to do with it.
The swallows seem to have a similar relationship to bluebirds. Though the swallows will chase the bluebirds I have never witness any truly aggressive attacks. The bluebirds also seem to understand that this is just the way swallows are - kind of like rambunctious children to be tolerated.
Overall, it would seem to me that martins, swallows, and bluebirds make good neighbors. As long as the swallows don't actually take up residence in the martin housing I don't think that they present a real problem.
Good luck Fred. Just out of curiosity, do you know the distance to the closest active martin colony from your site?
Jeff
-
Fred Kaluza~MI
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:40 pm
- Location: Port Huron, Michigan
- Martin Colony History: Tried and tried and had some visitors but...not enough good insects around here to keep them interested.
Thanks for the insights guys! inter-species bird behavior is really fun to observe and contemplate! Jeff, FYI, the closest known colony is on Lake St. Clair 8 miles east of me by Pat Johnson's place. The lake is a powerful attractant due to its temperature moderating effects and the supply of aquatic insects it offers. I am inland near a stream with high banks and steep sides and If I were a Martin, I'd definately think twice about living here. It's an OK spot I think but it's an island in a sea of concreted suburban noise. I'm sure that once all the other more desirable housing is taken up in the state then I'll get a pair and probably not until then! I wish there were more participants from more "urbanized" areas on the forum. I remember reading about many landlords in suburban Chicago but their colonies probably declined and disappeared in the 40's or 50's. I don't know.
-
Guest
Fred,
Your situation sounds similar to mine in that our closest colony resides on a fairly large inland lake about 8 - 10 miles from us (as the martin flies). I imagine that we have an advantage over you since we have 40 acres in a rural area with three ponds and a nice large marshy area. Like you we get visitors but have never had a pair nest.
I agree that it would be good to get more urbanized areas in Michigan to support martin colonies. Areas near existing colonies could expand the martins towards wanna-bes like yours. I have even thought of donating some martin housing to park departments or council on aging groups. Frankly, I think the retirement homes and COA's are the better choice since the retirees could be trained to maintain the houses. I have a friend that has created a large bluebird trail in a county park near us and the houses are constantly vandalized. The parks department will not tend the houses leaving all of the responsibility to him. Considering that the martin houses require more attention, I don't think public parks are a good candidate unless you are willing to travel and tend them yourself - we both know what Mark Dietrich goes through doing just that.
I think I will approach the COA here in Cass County to see if they would be interested in working together on a martin project. They have been receptive in the past when the Pheasants Forever chapter Cathy and I belong to planted 50 acres of their land in native prairie. I fact, myself and another Pheasants Forever member constructed and placed fifteen bluebird houses around the prairie and the COA building.
Keep the dawnsong going. Michigan needs more martins!
Jeff
Your situation sounds similar to mine in that our closest colony resides on a fairly large inland lake about 8 - 10 miles from us (as the martin flies). I imagine that we have an advantage over you since we have 40 acres in a rural area with three ponds and a nice large marshy area. Like you we get visitors but have never had a pair nest.
I agree that it would be good to get more urbanized areas in Michigan to support martin colonies. Areas near existing colonies could expand the martins towards wanna-bes like yours. I have even thought of donating some martin housing to park departments or council on aging groups. Frankly, I think the retirement homes and COA's are the better choice since the retirees could be trained to maintain the houses. I have a friend that has created a large bluebird trail in a county park near us and the houses are constantly vandalized. The parks department will not tend the houses leaving all of the responsibility to him. Considering that the martin houses require more attention, I don't think public parks are a good candidate unless you are willing to travel and tend them yourself - we both know what Mark Dietrich goes through doing just that.
I think I will approach the COA here in Cass County to see if they would be interested in working together on a martin project. They have been receptive in the past when the Pheasants Forever chapter Cathy and I belong to planted 50 acres of their land in native prairie. I fact, myself and another Pheasants Forever member constructed and placed fifteen bluebird houses around the prairie and the COA building.
Keep the dawnsong going. Michigan needs more martins!
Jeff
Fred:
You have been given much "well meaning" information; but, unfortunately, I'm afraid little of it applies to your site... or helps you know what to do. Quite frankly I am somewhat "upset" that collectively the readers of this board continue to "fail" when it comes to the issue of Tree Swallow interference at an UNESTABLISHED martin site.
All the posts above contain some applicable truth and are interesting... particularly the differences between eastern & western martins and Jeff's "adventure" with the TS who nested beneath his martin house. But the important fact is, TS interference (as you see it at your wannabe site... and often the cause of "failure" for years until recognized) just does not occur where there are site loyal returning martins. The protocol you should be following right now is at:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/E ... GENCY.html
You are probably getting "protection" from the TS pair you now have 65 feet from your PM rig. At this time of year, the TS territory usually extends that far from the rig... and yet the TS will still allow serious martins to investigate the housing.
The problem with the 65 ft. geometry is that the TS territory does indeed SHRINK as the season progresses... with the first diminution occurring when egg-laying is completed and mom gets busy with incubation.
I also have a slide show posted which includes some "geometry" and info regarding the shrinking of the TS territory:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/T ... ATION.html
Always remember that the question you are now dealing with is NOT whether your TS will "run off" investigating martins. THEY WILL ...unless the martin(s) involved are experienced, TRULY HOUSE HUNTING and find your place attractive. So, until you get a colony started, you will ALWAYS be waiting for "the right martin" to show up and like your housing! So you might have been misled (above) about what the "central question" is at your site. The CENTRAL QUESTION AND ISSUE is: you MUST PREVENT TS INVASION of your PM rig; for TS residing within the PM cavities are so close and so aggressive that none but the most experienced ASY martins will tolerate their harrassment.
As things stand now, there is a chance that your TS pair will give you only TEMPORARY PROTECTION. The danger is that their territory will shrink to less than 65 feet in a couple of weeks... and DEFINITELY when they are feeding chicks... and then you might wake up one morning to find another TS pair in one of your PM cavities while you are still hoping to attract martins. This is not a "hypothetical danger!" It happened to me a few years ago as I was just beginning to study this whole TS interference business... and it has happened to many others who "cheated" on the protocol's geometry. And, by that time, it will be very late in the season.
WHAT TO DO: As soon as the TS pair at 65 ft. are committed (an egg) you can (and should) move it (10 or 15 feet per day) to a spot within 25 to 35 feet of the PM rig. At this distance they should provide "protection" from TS invasion for the entire season.
Good luck! ~Dan
P.S. Note especially the diagram at:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/T ... GeomHospit
You have been given much "well meaning" information; but, unfortunately, I'm afraid little of it applies to your site... or helps you know what to do. Quite frankly I am somewhat "upset" that collectively the readers of this board continue to "fail" when it comes to the issue of Tree Swallow interference at an UNESTABLISHED martin site.
All the posts above contain some applicable truth and are interesting... particularly the differences between eastern & western martins and Jeff's "adventure" with the TS who nested beneath his martin house. But the important fact is, TS interference (as you see it at your wannabe site... and often the cause of "failure" for years until recognized) just does not occur where there are site loyal returning martins. The protocol you should be following right now is at:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/E ... GENCY.html
You are probably getting "protection" from the TS pair you now have 65 feet from your PM rig. At this time of year, the TS territory usually extends that far from the rig... and yet the TS will still allow serious martins to investigate the housing.
The problem with the 65 ft. geometry is that the TS territory does indeed SHRINK as the season progresses... with the first diminution occurring when egg-laying is completed and mom gets busy with incubation.
I also have a slide show posted which includes some "geometry" and info regarding the shrinking of the TS territory:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/T ... ATION.html
Always remember that the question you are now dealing with is NOT whether your TS will "run off" investigating martins. THEY WILL ...unless the martin(s) involved are experienced, TRULY HOUSE HUNTING and find your place attractive. So, until you get a colony started, you will ALWAYS be waiting for "the right martin" to show up and like your housing! So you might have been misled (above) about what the "central question" is at your site. The CENTRAL QUESTION AND ISSUE is: you MUST PREVENT TS INVASION of your PM rig; for TS residing within the PM cavities are so close and so aggressive that none but the most experienced ASY martins will tolerate their harrassment.
As things stand now, there is a chance that your TS pair will give you only TEMPORARY PROTECTION. The danger is that their territory will shrink to less than 65 feet in a couple of weeks... and DEFINITELY when they are feeding chicks... and then you might wake up one morning to find another TS pair in one of your PM cavities while you are still hoping to attract martins. This is not a "hypothetical danger!" It happened to me a few years ago as I was just beginning to study this whole TS interference business... and it has happened to many others who "cheated" on the protocol's geometry. And, by that time, it will be very late in the season.
WHAT TO DO: As soon as the TS pair at 65 ft. are committed (an egg) you can (and should) move it (10 or 15 feet per day) to a spot within 25 to 35 feet of the PM rig. At this distance they should provide "protection" from TS invasion for the entire season.
Good luck! ~Dan
P.S. Note especially the diagram at:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/T ... GeomHospit
-
Guest
I have to agree with the information that Dan provided. He is describing exactly what transpired with the swallows that built in the gourd under the martin house. I moved their gourd to a small tree limb a short distance from the martin housing. While the swallows often flew near or around the martin housing they did not appear to intimidate the young martin. In the last several years I have made gourd housing available to the swallows and they have not indicated any interest in the apartment style martin housing. In fact, both the tree swallow and bluebird housing fit the scenario he describes.
I will say that the bluebirds do perch on top of the martin housing frequently when they are hunting. Again, they show no interest in the housing for nesting, just as a hunting perch. Discouraging the bluebirds from perching there would be a very difficult thing to do since we have had a bluebird trail of twenty five houses with anywhere from 5 - 12 houses raising bluebirds and/or tree swallows throughout the summer. The result is that we have a very large population of bluebirds. When we have had a martin visitor I have never witnessed the blue birds acting aggressively towards the martins.
Having bluebirds that like to perch on top of the martin house may not be ideal, but I don't think that it is as much a detractor as sparrows or starlings, which are well controlled on our property.
Regardless of how well the site is arranged, it's just plain hard to attract martins in Michigan. As many things as we try there is always the odds factor that does not lean in our favor. I'm sure that bird interaction can play a part in the overall site desireability to martins. I am also sure that (given Fred's attention to details) that if he lived in the south he would already be loaded with martins. Our desire to increase the number of sucessful martin colonies in Michigan results in no little amount of frustration and a willingness to try anything and everything to attract martins.
While I am disappointed that I have not had martin visitors at our site yet this year, I have never seen a martin at our place earlier than June 15th. My hopes for a nesting pair this year are dwindling, but young visitors shopping for next season are always welcome.
Jeff
I will say that the bluebirds do perch on top of the martin housing frequently when they are hunting. Again, they show no interest in the housing for nesting, just as a hunting perch. Discouraging the bluebirds from perching there would be a very difficult thing to do since we have had a bluebird trail of twenty five houses with anywhere from 5 - 12 houses raising bluebirds and/or tree swallows throughout the summer. The result is that we have a very large population of bluebirds. When we have had a martin visitor I have never witnessed the blue birds acting aggressively towards the martins.
Having bluebirds that like to perch on top of the martin house may not be ideal, but I don't think that it is as much a detractor as sparrows or starlings, which are well controlled on our property.
Regardless of how well the site is arranged, it's just plain hard to attract martins in Michigan. As many things as we try there is always the odds factor that does not lean in our favor. I'm sure that bird interaction can play a part in the overall site desireability to martins. I am also sure that (given Fred's attention to details) that if he lived in the south he would already be loaded with martins. Our desire to increase the number of sucessful martin colonies in Michigan results in no little amount of frustration and a willingness to try anything and everything to attract martins.
While I am disappointed that I have not had martin visitors at our site yet this year, I have never seen a martin at our place earlier than June 15th. My hopes for a nesting pair this year are dwindling, but young visitors shopping for next season are always welcome.
Jeff
-
Guest
Hi Fred, I feel your pain. I've had the same dilemma for a number of years running. This is the first year that I've been able to get my tree swallows settled in time for martins interested in PM housing. They really do need to be very committed to their own gourd before you open up any other housing. If your PM housing is higher than the gourd that you provided for the TS's, they will be especially interested in alternative housing. Be patient and let them get settled in their own space before you open other housing. Otherwise, you may slow down the process of them getting settled. Becky Corbett, Sandy Spring, MD
-
Doug Martin - PA
- Posts: 1988
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pennsylvania/Fombell
- Martin Colony History: First pair in 2009 after 28 years of trying. 3 pairs 2010, 17 pairs 2011 and 35-45 pairs since. Many additional colonies are now springing up around mine in an area once completely void of Martins. I offer 50 compartments at my site consisting of primarily Excluder II gourds on Gemini racks. Also a wooden T-14. I utilize electric fence type predator guards on the base of the poles. Supplemental feeding is crucial in maintaining my colony. I platform feed throughout the season as needed. My site tends to be a stop over point for additional birds as they migrate further north.
I just have to jump in here. I agree with Stan. Now the crazy part. I also believe in Dan's research whole heartedy. He is right too.
I have also many, many years of experience in attracting martins to a new site. (25+)
Here is why I agree with both. I have 3 sites. Site one Lakefront, site 2 neighbors, site 3 mine. There have been visiting Martins and nesting tree swallows at all 3 sites. My neighbor's site has attracted one nesting pair of Martins in 2 separate years. 1999 & 2005
1999 - TS were feeding young in the same gourd rack. ASY pair attracted. They fought like cats and dogs. Fledged 4 Martins
2005- TS nesting in gourd rack Martins in T-14 15 ft away. SY pair. Since there were as many as 4 sy males with the pair TS interference was slight. Any martin on the rack would be furiously attacked. Fledged 2 Martins. Sparrows got 2 of the young.
My site is about 1/4 mile away. I was perfectly protocoled with my TS as always. I had 1 SY male loyal to my site. He (my neighbor) got the breeding pair with encroaching TS. He also had S&S problems. I did not.
The lakesite is less than 2 miles away. I watched as many as 6 TS mobbing Martins there at one time.. TS protocol at 35 ft. They later let another pair of TS into the rack.
I have witnessed many Martins being driven away from a potential site by not just the pair of TS but by other TS volunteers too.
Conclusion - There is no definite answer to a problem containing an infinite number of variables. The age and experience of the TS is more important than the Martins.
There is only theory.
Dan's theory is excellent.
Stan's theory is just as good.
In either case you should know my TS are my good friends. They are trained to take scrambled egg in bad weather and when I yell at them for chasing Martins they listen. (or I move their house even farther, clean across the 3 acres, which they hate) They are very tame.
Doug
I have also many, many years of experience in attracting martins to a new site. (25+)
Here is why I agree with both. I have 3 sites. Site one Lakefront, site 2 neighbors, site 3 mine. There have been visiting Martins and nesting tree swallows at all 3 sites. My neighbor's site has attracted one nesting pair of Martins in 2 separate years. 1999 & 2005
1999 - TS were feeding young in the same gourd rack. ASY pair attracted. They fought like cats and dogs. Fledged 4 Martins
2005- TS nesting in gourd rack Martins in T-14 15 ft away. SY pair. Since there were as many as 4 sy males with the pair TS interference was slight. Any martin on the rack would be furiously attacked. Fledged 2 Martins. Sparrows got 2 of the young.
My site is about 1/4 mile away. I was perfectly protocoled with my TS as always. I had 1 SY male loyal to my site. He (my neighbor) got the breeding pair with encroaching TS. He also had S&S problems. I did not.
The lakesite is less than 2 miles away. I watched as many as 6 TS mobbing Martins there at one time.. TS protocol at 35 ft. They later let another pair of TS into the rack.
I have witnessed many Martins being driven away from a potential site by not just the pair of TS but by other TS volunteers too.
Conclusion - There is no definite answer to a problem containing an infinite number of variables. The age and experience of the TS is more important than the Martins.
There is only theory.
Dan's theory is excellent.
Stan's theory is just as good.
In either case you should know my TS are my good friends. They are trained to take scrambled egg in bad weather and when I yell at them for chasing Martins they listen. (or I move their house even farther, clean across the 3 acres, which they hate) They are very tame.
Doug
Supplemental feeding plays a major role in Western Pennsylvania. Finally got my 1st pair in 2009 after 28 years of effort. The colony has grown quickly to 45 pairs that I care for. Many new colonies have now sprung up around me in the past few years as well. Where there was none.... there is many.
-
Guest
Hi Fred,
I have sucessfully forced TS to use a box 300 feet away from my unestablished martin housing for years. Once the TS were committed to their box they didn't bother my investigating martins. Watch your TS to see their reaction to the martins when they arrive then adjust accordingly. Once the TS have eggs it shouldn't matter how far away the TS are. I had more trouble with TS fighting and chasing off the martins when the TS were too close to the martin house.
Last year 2 martin pairs lived here and sucessfully fledged babies. This is the first year that I have ASY males and a lot of martin activity. The TS behavior is very different and interesting this year than any other year so far!
The two returning ASY males went back to their compartments last year. Within a few days we had 5 martins and some began sleeping in one of the gourds. Since the martins arrived the TS decided they wanted the gourd rack. I couldn't completely close the gourd rack due to the martin living in it but I have had to close some of the gourds on the opposite side of the rack from the martin. The TS and the martins are all perching on the rack even though the TS still aren't committed anywhere!
This is highly unusual behavior for the TS. The TS do make a lot of noise and do fight some with the martins but it isn't bothering the martins at all. Since I closed the gourds on the one side another martin has taken up residence in a gourd next to the first martin. The TS do not try to peer into or enter any gourds on the side of the rack where the martins are living!
We now have 8 martins here and one is living in the Lone Star next to the gourd rack. The TS don't even attempt to enter that house even though all compartments are open! Their behavior is just so different from previous years.
I think Doug said it best: "Conclusion - There is no definite answer to a problem containing an infinite number of variables."
You need to do what works for you and that may change from year to year!
I hope you get some martins this year. It will be worth all the trouble you are going through with the TS!
Joyce
I have sucessfully forced TS to use a box 300 feet away from my unestablished martin housing for years. Once the TS were committed to their box they didn't bother my investigating martins. Watch your TS to see their reaction to the martins when they arrive then adjust accordingly. Once the TS have eggs it shouldn't matter how far away the TS are. I had more trouble with TS fighting and chasing off the martins when the TS were too close to the martin house.
Last year 2 martin pairs lived here and sucessfully fledged babies. This is the first year that I have ASY males and a lot of martin activity. The TS behavior is very different and interesting this year than any other year so far!
The two returning ASY males went back to their compartments last year. Within a few days we had 5 martins and some began sleeping in one of the gourds. Since the martins arrived the TS decided they wanted the gourd rack. I couldn't completely close the gourd rack due to the martin living in it but I have had to close some of the gourds on the opposite side of the rack from the martin. The TS and the martins are all perching on the rack even though the TS still aren't committed anywhere!
This is highly unusual behavior for the TS. The TS do make a lot of noise and do fight some with the martins but it isn't bothering the martins at all. Since I closed the gourds on the one side another martin has taken up residence in a gourd next to the first martin. The TS do not try to peer into or enter any gourds on the side of the rack where the martins are living!
We now have 8 martins here and one is living in the Lone Star next to the gourd rack. The TS don't even attempt to enter that house even though all compartments are open! Their behavior is just so different from previous years.
I think Doug said it best: "Conclusion - There is no definite answer to a problem containing an infinite number of variables."
You need to do what works for you and that may change from year to year!
I hope you get some martins this year. It will be worth all the trouble you are going through with the TS!
Joyce
Last year 2 martin pairs lived here and sucessfully fledged babies. This is the first year that I have ASY males and a lot of martin activity. The TS behavior is very different and interesting this year than any other year so far!
This recitation is a critical one... predicitable and NO SURPRISE. Where there are site-loyal returning martins, tree swallow interference CEASES to be an impediment to getting martins. The TS do indeed behave differently!
The phenomenon that is frustrating to me is the posting of information on the assumption (by the poster) that "what happened at my site is what will happen at all other sites" ...without considerations that sometimes what happens is an EXCEPTION and can't be counted on at other sites... especially where martins have never successfully fledged young.
Joyce and I have agreed to disagree years ago! Regardless of what might have happened at her site, the research I stand by remains as follows:
1. At a distance of 300 feet from a prospective martin rig, regardless how committed a TS pair becomes, they will provide AT MOST a very temporary protection from TS invasion of the PM rig. In fact, as has been pointed out (an exception) where TS population are extremely high, TS have allowed other TS pair to nest at distances even closer than the 25 ft. recommended in the protocol. But exceptions are NOT what you want to be quoting when you are posting to help wannabe's. I refer you again to the geometry graphics in the slide show at:
http://www.drugfreeworkplace.com/~Dan/T ... ATION.html
This geometry and the protocol itself has passed the test of both time as well as the scrutiny of many a savvy swallow expert.
2. Although stories abound of wannabe's in tree swallow breeding territory getting martins on their first attempt, such an occurrence is AN EXCEPTION... and requires the extremely GOOD LUCK of getting "the right martin" (an experienced ASY who finds your site more attractive... or more available... than the one he was "loyal" to.) I believe firmly that for every story like this there are 50 or more scenarios of failure (often for many years) which occur because of unrecognized TS interference.
For the record, I do NOT recite these refutations as a means of "personal" face saving... nor out of some misplaced compulsion to "be right." The only reason I post on this board is to help wannabe's who are not yet aware (or only recently aware) that they have tree swallow interference. It is for this reason that "frustration" occurs when (non-applicable) advice from established sites is posted for wannabe's... or when anecdotes of "exceptional happenings" is offered to them as something they can expect at a brand new site in TS breeding territory.
Over the years, there have been MANY wannabe's who achieved success at getting martins by using the TS interference protocol... and most are now successful martin landlords... some even with trihabitations for several years. Unfortunately, they all seem to be monitoring and posting on "the other Forums" ...and some have even become "the leaders" there. But that is, indeed, an altogether separate "problem." ~Dan
MORE CLARIFICATION:
To read Stan's post as an announcement that it is now a good thing to allow tree swallows to nest in your unestablished martin rig in Michigan would be a completely WRONG reading; and Stan will probably post to acknowledge this. I hope you did not read it this way... and I hope it has not caused any confusion among wannabe readers. ~Dan
DOUG: Dan's theory is excellent. Stan's theory is just as good.
Ladies and Gentlemen: For years, I have known Stan (who lives in SEATTLE WASHINGTON) to be an excellent landlord and researcher in up in the "great Northwest." The last thing he would want to do is post information that would confuse wannabe's hoping for "eastern martins." I have posted the two quotes, in fact, as an EXCELLENT example of how something recited as "mysterious" or "exceptional" gets mis-read as a "rule" and then gets passed on as advice for wannabe's.STAN: Perhaps it can be explained by behavioral differences between eastern and western birds,
To read Stan's post as an announcement that it is now a good thing to allow tree swallows to nest in your unestablished martin rig in Michigan would be a completely WRONG reading; and Stan will probably post to acknowledge this. I hope you did not read it this way... and I hope it has not caused any confusion among wannabe readers. ~Dan
-
Guest
Hi Dan,
I heard you got martins last year as well. Congratulations! You must be very happy.
I posted a reply to Fred because I believe it is important to try new things especially if the old way isn't working. I'm sure your method works for some but not all. My method works for me. What difference does it make what method is used if the end result - to establish a martin colony - is successful? Obviously both methods worked because we both now have martins!
I was a wannabe landlord for many years. I know firsthand the frustration of watching the Tree Swallows chase away investigating martins. I understand very well what those landlords are feeling. I tried your method and it did not work for me. My question is why would someone waste years with a method that may not work for them when they could make a change that could make them a landlord sooner? And, why does it upset you so much if someone does make a change? Isn't your goal to help them regardless of how it happens?
As I stated in my Update article Einstein said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." I enjoy working with nature and making subtle changes to improve what I have. I don't have to continue using any prescribed method if it doesn't work just because someone says I should.
I am very happy that you care about your fellow landlords and have developed a plan to help them with the Tree Swallow invasions. Many people have benefitted from that plan I am sure. I am even happier that you yourself are now a landlord. I hope you enjoy watching your birds as much as I enjoy mine!
Good luck this year as your colony continues to grow.
Joyce
I heard you got martins last year as well. Congratulations! You must be very happy.
I posted a reply to Fred because I believe it is important to try new things especially if the old way isn't working. I'm sure your method works for some but not all. My method works for me. What difference does it make what method is used if the end result - to establish a martin colony - is successful? Obviously both methods worked because we both now have martins!
I was a wannabe landlord for many years. I know firsthand the frustration of watching the Tree Swallows chase away investigating martins. I understand very well what those landlords are feeling. I tried your method and it did not work for me. My question is why would someone waste years with a method that may not work for them when they could make a change that could make them a landlord sooner? And, why does it upset you so much if someone does make a change? Isn't your goal to help them regardless of how it happens?
As I stated in my Update article Einstein said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." I enjoy working with nature and making subtle changes to improve what I have. I don't have to continue using any prescribed method if it doesn't work just because someone says I should.
I am very happy that you care about your fellow landlords and have developed a plan to help them with the Tree Swallow invasions. Many people have benefitted from that plan I am sure. I am even happier that you yourself are now a landlord. I hope you enjoy watching your birds as much as I enjoy mine!
Good luck this year as your colony continues to grow.
Joyce
-
Doug Martin - PA
- Posts: 1988
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Pennsylvania/Fombell
- Martin Colony History: First pair in 2009 after 28 years of trying. 3 pairs 2010, 17 pairs 2011 and 35-45 pairs since. Many additional colonies are now springing up around mine in an area once completely void of Martins. I offer 50 compartments at my site consisting of primarily Excluder II gourds on Gemini racks. Also a wooden T-14. I utilize electric fence type predator guards on the base of the poles. Supplemental feeding is crucial in maintaining my colony. I platform feed throughout the season as needed. My site tends to be a stop over point for additional birds as they migrate further north.
OK,
I will add one last thought. I hope this doesn't drive you crazy Dan. Because it does make me wonder.
First for new comers I strongly recommend following Dan's protocol.
Second, last year I followed the protocol. I intially had the Martins hanging out at my site. My neighbor was away on vacation. Their housing was closed except for the TS in the gourd rack.
Why did they let the TS in?
My neighbors reasoning was that the first time they got Martins (4 yrs ago) there were TS nesting in their housing. So they let them nest there. I felt that I would have a big advantage since I had no competetion from other species. The two resident SY males brought females to my site daily. They would not stay although I was very very close.
When my neighbor got back from vacation a week later they opened their T-14. One of my males went there. A few other visitors were hanging too. I went down there to find the SY male battling the TS.
My site - no interference
To make a long story short a new SY pair showed up and chose their site to nest. Not mine. My remaining sy male also went where the action was. He would still try to attact female to my site ocasionally. The martins were always scrapping with the TS down there.
We both had T-14s We both had gourd racks. I also had several other choices of housing. The sites were within a few thousand feet of each other in a low Martin population area. But they were not identical sites.
There were many different variables.
We should not conclude that the Martins bred there because of the TS competition. But..... They (my neighbors) still think to attract Martins you should have TS nesting in the housing. After all it happened twice. Right?
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. This year they are following the protocol and not letting the TS in the housing. They think there was way too much fighting. We have yet to see a Martin in our area yet. Maybe I should let the TS nest in my gourd rack so I get the Martins this year. Look at the facts.
Would that be smart?
My conclusion. My neighbors have a superior site. It has a better open flight path to the valley below. They nested there despite the TS interference not because of it. Am I right? HMMMMM
You'd have to ask the Martins that question. Only they know for sure. Does Stan have a valid point, and this is further proof? Maybe.
Too many variables.
Doug
I will add one last thought. I hope this doesn't drive you crazy Dan. Because it does make me wonder.
First for new comers I strongly recommend following Dan's protocol.
Second, last year I followed the protocol. I intially had the Martins hanging out at my site. My neighbor was away on vacation. Their housing was closed except for the TS in the gourd rack.
Why did they let the TS in?
My neighbors reasoning was that the first time they got Martins (4 yrs ago) there were TS nesting in their housing. So they let them nest there. I felt that I would have a big advantage since I had no competetion from other species. The two resident SY males brought females to my site daily. They would not stay although I was very very close.
When my neighbor got back from vacation a week later they opened their T-14. One of my males went there. A few other visitors were hanging too. I went down there to find the SY male battling the TS.
My site - no interference
To make a long story short a new SY pair showed up and chose their site to nest. Not mine. My remaining sy male also went where the action was. He would still try to attact female to my site ocasionally. The martins were always scrapping with the TS down there.
We both had T-14s We both had gourd racks. I also had several other choices of housing. The sites were within a few thousand feet of each other in a low Martin population area. But they were not identical sites.
There were many different variables.
We should not conclude that the Martins bred there because of the TS competition. But..... They (my neighbors) still think to attract Martins you should have TS nesting in the housing. After all it happened twice. Right?
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. This year they are following the protocol and not letting the TS in the housing. They think there was way too much fighting. We have yet to see a Martin in our area yet. Maybe I should let the TS nest in my gourd rack so I get the Martins this year. Look at the facts.
Would that be smart?
My conclusion. My neighbors have a superior site. It has a better open flight path to the valley below. They nested there despite the TS interference not because of it. Am I right? HMMMMM
You'd have to ask the Martins that question. Only they know for sure. Does Stan have a valid point, and this is further proof? Maybe.
Too many variables.
Doug
Supplemental feeding plays a major role in Western Pennsylvania. Finally got my 1st pair in 2009 after 28 years of effort. The colony has grown quickly to 45 pairs that I care for. Many new colonies have now sprung up around me in the past few years as well. Where there was none.... there is many.
Doug, WHAT A STORY!
I don't think I ever suggested that there aren't lots of variables and unpredictibles. You are SO right that we are often left with no answer except the wish that we could "ask the martins." I have no idea whether your neighbor's site is more attractive than yours... but I doubt it since I know you are a guy who tries to do things right... from your posts over the years.
I really have only one "ax to grind" in all of this protocol business... and it all stems from my having been "burned" for years by the TS... and then willing to get lots of good advice and track so many sites... which (I believe) included yours a few years ago. That "ax" (and the only thing I really feel confident to preach from my soap box) is the proactive (if possible) or reactive (if necessary) prevention of tree swallow or blue bird invasions... which I still believe to be a "mortal sin" ...or at least a BIG MISTAKE.
The real "secret" to getting martins I learned from Louise Chambers... and it is the actual "pearl to remember" in this business: You must wait for THE RIGHT MARTIN! I believe there are still folks who misinterpret my posts as a "promise" that they will get martins if they simply avoid invasions by the other two birds. ...which, of course, I cannot promise at all.
I'm aware that sometimes folks are lucky enough to get "the right martin" even when they have done everything "half-vast" ...or even when "the right martin" likes a site already chosen by a TS pair. In fact, you probably read on "the other board" about this exact scenario out in Jeff City MO just recently.
So, sure... there are lots of unknowns, and exceptions, and variables, and even mysteries. I agree with all those making such observations in this thread and elswhere; but, down on the bottom line, I appreciate your continued endorsement of the TS/BB interference protocol as the primary thing to teach wannabe's who live where there are BB and TS. They will soon enough experience and read about the "exceptions" and the "odd stuff."
So, thanks for the endorsement, and the stories and reports. And please know that Joyce is mistaken about what "upsets me." I don't make a dime off this research; and I could not care less about who follows the protocol and who does not. What "upsets me" with my background in science and logic, is when the "odd stuff" and "exceptions" (and the "advice from established sites"] gets "taught" to wannabe's as what they can expect.
It is especially "upsetting" when I post (or see a post) with correct information or good teaching about TS interference IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED by a post which completely invalidates it by reciting an exception or "story" which leaves the wannabe reader with no confidence at all about what s/he should do.
A while back, there was even a poster who was a MILITANT "NEXT POSTER." It's almost enough to "send me lurking" again.
Good luck, Doug, in spite of all the "odd happenings." ~Dan
I don't think I ever suggested that there aren't lots of variables and unpredictibles. You are SO right that we are often left with no answer except the wish that we could "ask the martins." I have no idea whether your neighbor's site is more attractive than yours... but I doubt it since I know you are a guy who tries to do things right... from your posts over the years.
I really have only one "ax to grind" in all of this protocol business... and it all stems from my having been "burned" for years by the TS... and then willing to get lots of good advice and track so many sites... which (I believe) included yours a few years ago. That "ax" (and the only thing I really feel confident to preach from my soap box) is the proactive (if possible) or reactive (if necessary) prevention of tree swallow or blue bird invasions... which I still believe to be a "mortal sin" ...or at least a BIG MISTAKE.
The real "secret" to getting martins I learned from Louise Chambers... and it is the actual "pearl to remember" in this business: You must wait for THE RIGHT MARTIN! I believe there are still folks who misinterpret my posts as a "promise" that they will get martins if they simply avoid invasions by the other two birds. ...which, of course, I cannot promise at all.
I'm aware that sometimes folks are lucky enough to get "the right martin" even when they have done everything "half-vast" ...or even when "the right martin" likes a site already chosen by a TS pair. In fact, you probably read on "the other board" about this exact scenario out in Jeff City MO just recently.
So, sure... there are lots of unknowns, and exceptions, and variables, and even mysteries. I agree with all those making such observations in this thread and elswhere; but, down on the bottom line, I appreciate your continued endorsement of the TS/BB interference protocol as the primary thing to teach wannabe's who live where there are BB and TS. They will soon enough experience and read about the "exceptions" and the "odd stuff."
So, thanks for the endorsement, and the stories and reports. And please know that Joyce is mistaken about what "upsets me." I don't make a dime off this research; and I could not care less about who follows the protocol and who does not. What "upsets me" with my background in science and logic, is when the "odd stuff" and "exceptions" (and the "advice from established sites"] gets "taught" to wannabe's as what they can expect.
It is especially "upsetting" when I post (or see a post) with correct information or good teaching about TS interference IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED by a post which completely invalidates it by reciting an exception or "story" which leaves the wannabe reader with no confidence at all about what s/he should do.
A while back, there was even a poster who was a MILITANT "NEXT POSTER." It's almost enough to "send me lurking" again.
Good luck, Doug, in spite of all the "odd happenings." ~Dan