Hi,
When I checked my nest and found eggs the other day I also noticed the great difference in the amount of nesting material used to make the nests. It went from a very well constructed nest to one that had no nesting material added except what I had put in to start with. Three other nests I checked today had very little or no material other than what I put in the gourd originally. Only the one gourd was a typical martin nest. This was not the case last year. All the pairs that have laid so far are ASY/ASY pairs. Have other landlords seen this?
Thanks
James
Lazy Martins?
- Attachments
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- This nest is very well constructed with pine needles, green and brown Live Oak leaves and a dam made of filimentous algae instead of mud.
- IMG_4048.JPG (195.68 KiB) Viewed 3494 times
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- This nest has no added material except corn fodder I added as substrate to start the nesting season.
- Martin nest with no added material.JPG (80.59 KiB) Viewed 3507 times
James Mejeur
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Rich Jewell In
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:56 pm
- Location: Indiana Crown Point
James,
I had my first pair of sy's last year. Other than a couple pieces of straw, they used only the pine straw I put in. No leaves or anything! Had six eggs and fledged five.
Rich
I had my first pair of sy's last year. Other than a couple pieces of straw, they used only the pine straw I put in. No leaves or anything! Had six eggs and fledged five.
Rich
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Guest
I have a question for you.
Is it possible that we are making the martins lazy by inserting nesting material for them? Also what kind of negative affects if any might this have long term for the martins ability to build their own nests?
I am going into my second year hoping on attracting purple martins to my location in Ramsey, MN. Last year I constructed a T-14 with nest inserts and filled the inserts with nesting material and mud dams as per some books I read and articles posted on various websites.
Towards the end of an unsuccessful season last year, I called Ron Seekamp and asked him for some advise. Ron very graciously drove to my house and gave everything a very thorough look. Upon lowering my T-14 and inspecting my inserts he discouraged my attempts to add any nesting material to my housing. I didn't ask him why but I hope to ask him soon.
I know that when I visited his house in June/July his houses had no corn fodder/woodchips or any landlord added nesting materials. Just some pine needles and brown/green leaves.
Here is a link to a picture I took of one of his inserts:
http://www.fros.com/photopost/showphoto ... thecat=594
As a new potential landlord I am like a sponge and find myself reading a lot on the internet and purchasing books/publications to make sure I am making the right decisions moving forward.
I am not suggesting that what is being done here is wrong, I am just trying to make sense of all of this and get different peoples perspectives.
Is it possible that we are making the martins lazy by inserting nesting material for them? Also what kind of negative affects if any might this have long term for the martins ability to build their own nests?
I am going into my second year hoping on attracting purple martins to my location in Ramsey, MN. Last year I constructed a T-14 with nest inserts and filled the inserts with nesting material and mud dams as per some books I read and articles posted on various websites.
Towards the end of an unsuccessful season last year, I called Ron Seekamp and asked him for some advise. Ron very graciously drove to my house and gave everything a very thorough look. Upon lowering my T-14 and inspecting my inserts he discouraged my attempts to add any nesting material to my housing. I didn't ask him why but I hope to ask him soon.
I know that when I visited his house in June/July his houses had no corn fodder/woodchips or any landlord added nesting materials. Just some pine needles and brown/green leaves.
Here is a link to a picture I took of one of his inserts:
http://www.fros.com/photopost/showphoto ... thecat=594
As a new potential landlord I am like a sponge and find myself reading a lot on the internet and purchasing books/publications to make sure I am making the right decisions moving forward.
I am not suggesting that what is being done here is wrong, I am just trying to make sense of all of this and get different peoples perspectives.
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floridasunshinegoddess
James, my "Florida" Martins have done the same this year. The ones that have laid eggs are ASY's, probably mine from last year. I prenested with Pine Needles last year same as this one... but instead of making nice nests like last year, they've only scooped out a cup and added a few leaves... And the leaves aren't even green!
I'm wondering if they learned from last year that it wasn't necessary to go to all that trouble making a nest!
I'm wondering if they learned from last year that it wasn't necessary to go to all that trouble making a nest!
Hi Foredude,
The idea behind putting nesting material in the nestboxes is because that is usually how martins find their nest sites when they arrive. Because nest sites tends to be the limiting factor in their nesting and populations nest sites are almost always reused so there is already nesting material in them when the birds arrive. Even before humans became involved martins were obligate cavity nesters that depended on finding cavities created by other birds. In other words they have always relied on the secondary housing market. They rarely if ever find clean empty nest sites. The theory is also that if a nest site has nest material in it that it was a successful nest site previously and so would be a good place for the prospective residents to raise their young. I doubt if the birds actually do that much reasoning but that is how many people imagine they would think. Since I use only Troyer horizontal gourds at home I fill it because in my older gourds they are slick on the inside and it is difficult for the birds to get in and out if there is no substrate. Also the gourd is a large area for the birds to fill.
Initially my question was why do some birds build a large highly organized nest and other ones in the same colony with access to the same resources and nest sites not add anything? I don't think in this case we are modifying the birds natural behavior and cause them to loose it by adding nesting material. It is probably related to the preference and experience of the individual birds. I was wondering if other landlords had experienced what I was seeing this year but hadn't last year. Just part of my natural curiosity.
Barb, I noticed the same thing this year too with the leaves. This year all the nests that have leaves in them so far have only the dried brown ones and not fresh green ones like usual. Very curious.
Thanks for all your comments.
James
The idea behind putting nesting material in the nestboxes is because that is usually how martins find their nest sites when they arrive. Because nest sites tends to be the limiting factor in their nesting and populations nest sites are almost always reused so there is already nesting material in them when the birds arrive. Even before humans became involved martins were obligate cavity nesters that depended on finding cavities created by other birds. In other words they have always relied on the secondary housing market. They rarely if ever find clean empty nest sites. The theory is also that if a nest site has nest material in it that it was a successful nest site previously and so would be a good place for the prospective residents to raise their young. I doubt if the birds actually do that much reasoning but that is how many people imagine they would think. Since I use only Troyer horizontal gourds at home I fill it because in my older gourds they are slick on the inside and it is difficult for the birds to get in and out if there is no substrate. Also the gourd is a large area for the birds to fill.
Initially my question was why do some birds build a large highly organized nest and other ones in the same colony with access to the same resources and nest sites not add anything? I don't think in this case we are modifying the birds natural behavior and cause them to loose it by adding nesting material. It is probably related to the preference and experience of the individual birds. I was wondering if other landlords had experienced what I was seeing this year but hadn't last year. Just part of my natural curiosity.
Barb, I noticed the same thing this year too with the leaves. This year all the nests that have leaves in them so far have only the dried brown ones and not fresh green ones like usual. Very curious.
Thanks for all your comments.
James
James Mejeur
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Guest
Well, this is my Texas PMs....
1st year- grass (1pr)
2nd years- grass (4pr)
3rd year- grass, loli pop stick, 16p nail, candy wrappers, construction material- you name it (7pr)
Does anyone ever take pictures of the stuff that comes out at nest change? Also noticed that when NC are done and cedar shaving added, they were pushed out the next day.
This year I added pine straw and Mexican Feather Grass.
Chuck
1st year- grass (1pr)
2nd years- grass (4pr)
3rd year- grass, loli pop stick, 16p nail, candy wrappers, construction material- you name it (7pr)
Does anyone ever take pictures of the stuff that comes out at nest change? Also noticed that when NC are done and cedar shaving added, they were pushed out the next day.
This year I added pine straw and Mexican Feather Grass.
Chuck
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TreeGreenwood
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:27 pm
- Location: Virginia/Catlett
I'm new to Purple Martins but not to birds. When a female bird is ready to lay, she MUST release the egg or risk becoming egg bournd, a condition that could kill her.
Although unusual, I have seen Bluebirds and Tree Swallows 'drop' or 'dump' eggs on the bare bottom of a nestbox. That usually happens because a House Sparrow drove the female from her chosen nestbox where she prepared a proper nest. Although unusual, this happened often enough that I now put some next material in the bottom of all of my nestboxes. In rare cases, an egg is dumped/dropped in the nest of another bird so a Tree Swallow hatches in a Bluebird clutch. Eastern Bluebirds can't tell the difference in hatchlings and feed all of 'em, even a Cowbird if the nestbox was parasitized (a pair of Bluebirds nested in a Kestrel box). At least a Tree Swallow is close to the same size... and it fledged on time with the Bluebird nestlings. Probably thinks that it's blue.
So I'll speculate that something delayed the Martins nesting so that the females HAD to 'drop/dump' their eggs before they could properly prepare their nests. The 'something' could be laziness or procrastination but may also be that she was driven from a slum house in your area where she had mated and bonded and started a proper nest. Perhaps weather delayed nest building. When she found your site, she HAD to drop her egg or become egg bound and then follow with another egg every day until her clutch is complete.
Although unusual, I have seen Bluebirds and Tree Swallows 'drop' or 'dump' eggs on the bare bottom of a nestbox. That usually happens because a House Sparrow drove the female from her chosen nestbox where she prepared a proper nest. Although unusual, this happened often enough that I now put some next material in the bottom of all of my nestboxes. In rare cases, an egg is dumped/dropped in the nest of another bird so a Tree Swallow hatches in a Bluebird clutch. Eastern Bluebirds can't tell the difference in hatchlings and feed all of 'em, even a Cowbird if the nestbox was parasitized (a pair of Bluebirds nested in a Kestrel box). At least a Tree Swallow is close to the same size... and it fledged on time with the Bluebird nestlings. Probably thinks that it's blue.
So I'll speculate that something delayed the Martins nesting so that the females HAD to 'drop/dump' their eggs before they could properly prepare their nests. The 'something' could be laziness or procrastination but may also be that she was driven from a slum house in your area where she had mated and bonded and started a proper nest. Perhaps weather delayed nest building. When she found your site, she HAD to drop her egg or become egg bound and then follow with another egg every day until her clutch is complete.
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Sigundo
Well... maybe, but some are just lazy (or unskilled). My first year martins took quite a while to find which room they wanted, sparrows were under control, no startlings to speak of, and my first nest check showed 3 eggs, about 4 bits of hay (I provided NO nesting material, except some mud in a tray about 20 feet from the house). The hay was arranged in a circle, and the eggs were rolling around on the plastic floor of the house. This happened in all but ONE of my nests, and I made my own nests for them, based on the one good one, with plenty of hay, some green leaves and mud. Put the eggs into the nests I made, and everything was fine..
Can't say whether or not the eggs would have done worse without my help, but its windy in my yard and I didn't want the eggs to roll all over the place. The second year was a bit better, even the worst nest was good enough to keep the eggs stable.. whether it was the same birds or not I dont know, but they certainly did a much better job the second year.
Since I had a good hatching, I stick to the same method of not providing pre built nests (but providing the hay/straw and mud nearby), and keeping the one dogwood tree in my yard healthy (this is where they get the leaves for the nests). Once they start laying the eggs, if the nest check shows a "bad" nest, I'll fix it, otherwise I let them do what they want. Last year was my first year with any gourds, and they seemed to build better nests in the gourds (maybe the roundness inside helped, I dunno). I know a lot of people do way more than me, but I try and let nature take care of herself, except I lend support in the predator defense department with much gusto, as these birds are just not equipped for the onslaught of starlings and sparrows.. if they'd stay away, I wouldn't bother them, so I let the S&S choose how they want to play it. My yard, MY rules
Can't say whether or not the eggs would have done worse without my help, but its windy in my yard and I didn't want the eggs to roll all over the place. The second year was a bit better, even the worst nest was good enough to keep the eggs stable.. whether it was the same birds or not I dont know, but they certainly did a much better job the second year.
Since I had a good hatching, I stick to the same method of not providing pre built nests (but providing the hay/straw and mud nearby), and keeping the one dogwood tree in my yard healthy (this is where they get the leaves for the nests). Once they start laying the eggs, if the nest check shows a "bad" nest, I'll fix it, otherwise I let them do what they want. Last year was my first year with any gourds, and they seemed to build better nests in the gourds (maybe the roundness inside helped, I dunno). I know a lot of people do way more than me, but I try and let nature take care of herself, except I lend support in the predator defense department with much gusto, as these birds are just not equipped for the onslaught of starlings and sparrows.. if they'd stay away, I wouldn't bother them, so I let the S&S choose how they want to play it. My yard, MY rules
Same thing here. I thouht I was the only one with lazy pms. I have one gourd with just a few brown oak leavas and they layed 2eggs. The rest are just bowls in the pine straw and no green leaves.Maybe its the weather pms have arrived early this year and are laying eggs early.