Are SREH's harming the martins?

[Guest]

I just read the SREH Advisory by Rick Cruz on The Purple Martin Society, NA website. In it he advises that he has observed damage to the backs of martins using the SREH entrance.

I would like others comments about this as I have just finished converting all of my houses (most are metal) the the SREH's. I got these as manufactured doors and also plates for some houses. My martins struggled at first, but now seem to have no problems with the crescent entrances. It is wonderful to see that starlings can't get in them. I also thought that they afford more protection from owls and hawks. But, I don't want to harm the martins.

I am wondering if I should convert back to round holes after the starlings have started nesting elsewhere. I really need some expert advice.

[Guest]

I am about 90% crescents and will convert my remaining round holes to crescents as soon as this drizzle lets up. I have observed PMs struggling to get through the crescents, but have never noted any [apparent] damage to their backs.

My estimation is that the potential damage to be done by starlings to your colony far outweighs the potential damage to your colony by crescent entrances, even if there were to be any back damage.

[RC Moser]

I think you have to feel your factory cut Sreh's and smooth (sand) the ruff or sharpe edges. If they feel sharp sand them for a smooth entry IMO. PM actually have to rotate there breast to enter Srehs IMO. this is why some take a while to figure it out in my opinion. I Agree Starlings will Kill and boot you PM out of them Home if you go roundin an starling infested area. Alot of landlords use sreh's with no problems IMO.

[Dale Hrncirik]

grandmac.2,

I would like more details on those reported SREs causing problems. There are many SRE variations out there with many different dimensions to boot. I have watched my colony grow over the years as have many others that use SREs.

I use exclusively crescents that are oversized a tad bit to about 1.21" which is roughly the size of a black 35 mm Kodak film canister...not sure how I stumbled on that one several years ago. At that time, I set all my crescents (SGs and naturals)where that film canister was a very snug fit which amounts to just less than 1/32" over the recommended 1 & 3/16". Nary a starling has made it thru and none of my martins are experiencing back problems...to my knowledge.

I respect Rick and all he has done for martins in Ill. but there appears to be no such evidence (at this time)in the south (to my knowledge) that SREs are causing martins any harm. I will try and have my all adults banded ASAP if that will help determine any problem with the SREs and I hope that others will as well. Without banding the adults(and capturing them in subsequent years), it will be difficult to make that assumption.

And Louise, if you read this, please let me know what you found out about the possibilites of color banding in north Texas. Thanks,

Dale

[John Miller]

I agree with Dale and follow the film canister method. If you are concerned that standard 3/16 is too restrictive, give it a try -- but remember the canister should slip in very snugly. Also, make sure your porches are no more than one-fourth inch below the crescent. Lower allows starlings to push up and in, even in standard crescents if the starling is a small female. I don't like flush either -- to restrictive on martins IMO although they will learn to use them. About 3/16" below is my preference.

I'm not convinced that photo you saw is actually SREH induced. It might be, but it looks more like a sparrow attack to me. Sparrows sometimes pluck patches of feathers from the nape of martins in fighting. As RC said, it's important to smooth SREH surfaces. I do believe some SREH(s) do cause modest feather wear. However, worn feathers are not life-threatening -- starlings are. So I've opted to compromise and maybe that's something you can consider as well, but measure carefully.

John Miller

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

This story seems to jump out about one time a year, but I have never seen proof of it, and if I did, I also think as stated above that I would rather have some damaged feathers than dead birds that the starlings killed...Stuff like this must be put into a catagory of "who cares, the advantages outweight the disadvantages"

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Do you guys make your own SREH's or enlarge the manufactured ones? Should I file mine down or try to cut? I might make matters worse. Sure would be nice if the manufacturers would offer the slightly larger SREH.

Thanks, again.

[Bernie Nikolai]

In my opinion Rick needs to pull the story and photos you are referring to asap. I have NEVER seen or heard of a similar incident among many other hugely successful landlords that use SREH. If the feather damage in the photo was made by an SREH, and not a fight with another bird, the SREH must have been made of metal with very sharp edges. Personally, I would much rather use SREH plates made of plastic as they are much easier to sand larger and smoother than metal, if required. I also enlarge my SREH with sandpaper to just barely allow the end of a 35 mm film container to fit in snugly. No starling has entered yet. But once they learn how, the martins scoot in like greased lightning.

I think unless you live in an area with no starlings, or unless you already have a large successful colony (the martins themselves will help chase the starlings away to a degree if this is the case) and you are prepared to shoot and trap, and have the time to do this, round entrance holes need to go the way of the dodo bird. If Alberta martins easily start new colonies with "all SREH" as I have seen, (and we are on the extreme northwest part of the martin range), SREH will be used by martins anywhere.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Bernie, I agree. In my opinion, there definitely is not a reason in the world that a person should use round holes if there is even a remote chance of a starling coming to your site...the starlings are so numerous, I really don't think that there are ANY safe areas...

[John Miller]

Grandmac.2

Manufacturers would get criticized if they made crescents slightly large as 3/16 is the standard. You can use a factory crescent as a template to make an opening yourself. Cut just inside the line, then sand the bottom until a film canister snugs in. It's also good to round out the corners some to reduce the risk of wing entrapment.

I just want to emphasize that it's hard to measure these things with a ruler and if you open to 1 1/4, it's very much compromised.

John Miller

[Guest]

I make all my own crescents, I make them out of aluminum. I use a high speed cutter in my dremel. Looks like a drill bit, about the top 3/4" is a cutter for soft metals. That thing is sweet for soft metal work! I use that bit for a lot of things....works great on gourds too.

Then I check measurements and then sand for smooth edges. I also like the idea of the plastic crescents too. Maybe out of white plexi glass?

Anyway, the martins seem to disappear as soon as they hit the porches. Haven't noticed any injured or hurt.

Hope this weather warms up a little more here in central Illinois..

Good luck to all!!

Craig

[Scully]

On our school website ( www.nisd.net/jay/martins ) can be seen clips of nest footage of a pair of martins in a gourd equipped with a crescent entrance. This entrance was sanded smooth beforehand but was otherwise left "as is". A couple of folks have pm'd me about possible wear or damage to the feathers visible on the back of the neck of the male, who was discernibly larger than his mate.

If there IS feather damage it does not seem to visibly affect the behavior of the male any, and all five nestlings successfully fledged, the male entering and leaving the nest throughout this whole period.

OTOH, the possibility of a starling getting into that nest just doesn't bear thinking about. I'll accept non-critical plumage damage if the martins use it and if the entrance reliably excludes starlings.

Mike Scully

[Bob Buskas]

I make all my SREH out of 1/8" thick puck board. It is a very tough but yet flexible Plastic. If you sand it smooth there is no feather damage at all. Possibly some metal SREH with very sharp edges could...... I don't know. This is one reason that I prefer the McEwen crescent over other SREH. The rounded edge on the top of the Crescent will cause a much lesser chance of feather damage than a flat surface. I agree with Bernie, Rick should remove that post as he is doing more harm to Martins than good. But every year he brings it up.

[Bob Buskas]

I make all my SREH out of 1/8" thick puck board. It is a very tough but yet flexible Plastic. If you sand it smooth there is no feather damage at all. Possibly some metal SREH with very sharp edges could...... I don't know. This is one reason that I prefer the McEwen crescent over other SREH. The rounded edge on the top of the Crescent will cause a much lesser chance of feather damage than a flat surface. I agree with Bernie, Rick should remove that post as he is doing more harm to Martins than good. But every year he brings it up.

[Steve Kroenke]

I don't use srehs in my colony and they are not going the way of the dodo bird as one negative poster commented. We round hole landlords are not dodo birds and we are doing just fine. I have a flourishing round hole colony with no starlings. Other round hole landlords who manage their colonies are excellent and not dodo birds. Starling competition varies from one location to the other and because someone in Canada has a problem does not mean I will have one in Louisiana. Again we round hole landlords are not dodo birds.

We do use crescent holes in our satellite colonies around Shreveport, Louisiana because starlings are more abundant in urban locations. Last year we found four dead martins stuck in standard crescent holes in aluminum houses. In all cases the martin tried to escape from another martin and the loser became lodged. We saved several martins from starvation which were blocked from leaving. This year we found one dead martin stuck in a crescent hole and I have seen feathers around several crescents where some martins had their backs and breasts damaged from wiggling in and out. The only way to really determine if crescents are damaging martin feathers is probably to capture adult martins and examine their backs/breasts. I did see a male martin yesterday with feathers curled up around his back. Again these are crescents in thin aluminum and this material may be more damaging than plastic, wood or natural gourds.

These are standard commercially made crescents with a height of 1 and 3/16 inches which can be too tight for larger/heavier martins. Martins are not monolithic in size and some variations exist. Bob, my neighbor makes his crescents and he use slightly larger crescent entrances in most of his houses. His crescents average about 1.25 inches in height. This has greatly reduced potential feather damage and "stuck" martins.

I believe there is a place for both round holes and srehs and each works well. The value of srehs in starling infested areas outweighs any problems with feather damage or the occasional stuck martins. The value of round holes in areas where starlings are not a problem or can be managed is obvious. We have proven that in northwest Louisiana.


Steve

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Steve, I simply disagree completely with you about the place for round holes. I raised martins since 1969 until 2004 with round holes. I started in Louisiana, ended up here in Texas. It was a constant battle with sparrows in the early years, but in recent years, the battle has changed to sparrows & starlings..I average about 180 pair, so my colony size is large enough that I can draw some conclusions..I also live in the country like you do, the nearest city is 7 miles away..The round holes worked well for me, the martins used them.

Then I switched to SREH 2 years ago, and there is absolutely no difference in the martins, in their actions, their style, their behavior, or anything else that I noticed. I occasionally put up some round holes to see what will happen. There is no different reaction whatsoever between the two types. The martins choose a gourd by the location, not by the hole type.

Also, I have never seen any of my martins stuck in a crescent because the corners in all of my crescents are rounded, they do not come to a sharp point. If you are monitoring other colonies that have such crescents, you need to fix them so that they are rounded, and then your problem of finding stuck martins would in my opinion disappear. Here is a new and better idea that you need to incorporate into your housing.

My reason for not wanting round holes any longer is that I don't want to sit outside watching and guarding my martins 7 days a week during all the daylight hours, and I know that you don't do that either. Even if a person does not see a starling in a week, one can come while you are eating, and completely destroy a nest of eggs or babies in a minute or two.

Sure I hated to change all the entrances on all of my gourds. I also know that progress could never be made at my place if I refuse to follow new, better, and safer practices for the martins. Progress comes when new ideas are incorporated into our everyday lives..I didn't want to sit here and advice people to use SREH if they have starlings, say that they may need them, and then refuse to do it myself. That would make me feel like a hypocrite, because I would be advising one thing but doing another myself..

Steve, I know that you are a very successful landlord, and you are doing an outstanding job of keeping the starlings away. I only think that you are misleading many young inexperienced landlords.

[starling shooter]

I gotta give props to the SREH.

My mom's site was really struggling with starlings. Once we went SREH, it has went from 6 pairs (I shot starlings on weekends nonstop) to 17 pairs in one year.

I've got round hole NGs, with a couple of NB traps and a handy pellet gun so I can keep them at bay but it is a full time job.

[CUL Lou~Mich]

I'd just like to make a small comment here. Rick isn't dragging this thing out. He hasn't even been on the forum in ages that I know of. It was brought up by a different person (Grandmac 2 from this forum) who had READ the article recently. The PMS NA has went to a different format forum (I believe the same one the PMCA is using) since their old one was quite old, and unstable. The owner of the forum has been integrating lots of the threads from the old forum, over to the new one, and this is possibly how it got picked up again. It is an old report/post made by Rick that was transferred to the new forum. So, let's NOT blame Rick for the post, nor should we bad mouth him. He was only reporting an observation he made. The same as any caring landlord would have done had they observed possible damages. CUL Lou

[rickluc]

CUL Lou~Mich

Thank you

[Bob Buskas]

Thanks for clearing that up Lou, I think classing all SREH together is our problem. Every time I hear about a Martin getting stuck in a Crescent it is in a metal house. I personally have been total crescents since 2000 and have never had or heard off a Martin getting stuck in one of the crescents I have built. I agree with Emils post totally and if anyone is having problems with Martins getting stuck or having feather damage, they should do some homework and solve the problem. I also like the fact that any SREH combined with deeper compartments has eliminated the possibility of a predator being able to reach into the compartment and pull out a Martin. I also feel SREH do not allow rain to be driven in, in a storm as it is much lower. Since I started using SREH I have noticed that the Martins no longer build the Mud dam that they use to when I had round entrances.