In Early April we erected 2 martin houses at our beach house near Corova, North Carolina. All through the spring we phoned our renters and they shared with us what the martins were up to. and how many were building nests.
Well, we finally arrived for "our" vacation at Pelican's Perch. http://www.fishdeepcreek.com/PelicansPerch.htm
Our martins were still hanging around the neighborhood every morning and we'd watch about 50 of them flying and sitting on the electric wires. We guessed they were getting ready to migrate south and were just saying goodbye.
The wild horses on our beach used the martin housing poles as "rubbing posts" so some of our housing was leaning slightly. Stephen, Sandy, Kathy, Chris and I lowered the housing and constructed footers to support the 4x4 poles to keep the poles verticle. We also erected a 3rd house. As I was cleaning out the boxes, I began finding dead fledglings in both houses....the count came to 12 and they were dried and decomposed...as many as 3 or 4 to a nest. We were very concerned since this was out first attempt to raise martins and these little guys didn't make it. Since we live in Maryland, we can't monitor the birds like we should. Our neighbors there in Corova, supported our assumption that the fledgelings died of exposure to the cold weather that the Outer Banks experienced this spring thru May and June. All the nests were in the center of the housing closeest to the support pole which probably were the warmest compartments.
Was wondering if any experts would agree to our assumption. We ruled out predation simply because the fleglings were intact and snuggled against one another. I wouldn't think that the wild horses rubbing the posts would have caused this event????? What can we do to prevent this situation next spring, if this was what caused the young to die.
Thanks,
Brent
Wild Horses and Martins?????
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Brent
I lost three about 11 day old fledlings in July, due to three days of light rain from hurricane Dennis remants. The nest got wet, and there may have been poor feeding as well.
I don't know what kind of housing you have, but keeping nests dry is very important . Water sweeps across aluminum floors and saturates nests in some alumimun houses. Subfloors of mesh aluminum help, but should be elevated even more with little planks. I'm also experimenting with styrofoam nest bowls, made of 3/4 inch thick, dense styrofoam. This elevates the nest further. If your house would accommodate "nest trays," these should keep nests drier as well.
I've also been advocating insulating aluminum housing by gluing 1/8 inch thick styrofoam to the exterior walls (on inside). I think this is more appropriate for latitudes about St. Louis north, where cold springs can zap adult birds. For you, I'd really consider if wet nests contributed to the loss. If you lost birds due strictly to poor feeding conditions in June/July there may not be much you can do at a resort site, as you are not there to try supplemental feeding.
Sounds like a great site. I'd love to see a picture.
John Miller,
St. Louis, Mo
I lost three about 11 day old fledlings in July, due to three days of light rain from hurricane Dennis remants. The nest got wet, and there may have been poor feeding as well.
I don't know what kind of housing you have, but keeping nests dry is very important . Water sweeps across aluminum floors and saturates nests in some alumimun houses. Subfloors of mesh aluminum help, but should be elevated even more with little planks. I'm also experimenting with styrofoam nest bowls, made of 3/4 inch thick, dense styrofoam. This elevates the nest further. If your house would accommodate "nest trays," these should keep nests drier as well.
I've also been advocating insulating aluminum housing by gluing 1/8 inch thick styrofoam to the exterior walls (on inside). I think this is more appropriate for latitudes about St. Louis north, where cold springs can zap adult birds. For you, I'd really consider if wet nests contributed to the loss. If you lost birds due strictly to poor feeding conditions in June/July there may not be much you can do at a resort site, as you are not there to try supplemental feeding.
Sounds like a great site. I'd love to see a picture.
John Miller,
St. Louis, Mo
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Guest
Brent,
I live about 20 miles by the way martins fly to the north of you. There are several colonies in my area and none that i know of that had fledgings died from exposure. I would look for a different cause. Maybe some kind of parasite?It would hard for you to determine what the cause was not working with your colony full time. Good luck with martins in the future.
Shane
I live about 20 miles by the way martins fly to the north of you. There are several colonies in my area and none that i know of that had fledgings died from exposure. I would look for a different cause. Maybe some kind of parasite?It would hard for you to determine what the cause was not working with your colony full time. Good luck with martins in the future.
Shane
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
Where there mites on the nesting material & on the dead birds? That could be caused by owls, hawks, snakes, racoons. Do you have a predator guard? Maybe the owls or hawks caught the parents.
The only good way to tell is for you to minitor your martins a bit more, so you know whats happening. Since you cannot do that, it really is hard to say.
The only way that they would leave babies is if the horses rubbed the poles every night, causing the martin parents to leave, but I doubt that this happened. The parents do leave for a while if you shake the poles, they usually come back the next morning.
The only good way to tell is for you to minitor your martins a bit more, so you know whats happening. Since you cannot do that, it really is hard to say.
The only way that they would leave babies is if the horses rubbed the poles every night, causing the martin parents to leave, but I doubt that this happened. The parents do leave for a while if you shake the poles, they usually come back the next morning.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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Fred Kaluza~MI
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:40 pm
- Location: Port Huron, Michigan
- Martin Colony History: Tried and tried and had some visitors but...not enough good insects around here to keep them interested.
John, what is the "r" value of 1/8" Styrofoam panel? I'm wondering if something that thin is really going to do much good. Some people on this forum have done very extensive temperature studies with calibrated thermometers and found very little difference between internal and external temperatures. Primarily because Martins never close their doors! Comparing the cavity space in relation to the opening "even if SREH" is like trying to keep your garage warm in the winter with the garage doors open. That's as far as the air temp goes, however, I am in favor of insulating from the body conductivty perspective. Obviously adult Martins have feathers that limit the heat flow by conduction and naked nestlings SHOULD have dry material under them to create the insulative effect of feathers. If the nest material is wet, heat conductivity increases and nestlings get cold. Personally if I had to sit bare bottomed on the concrete floor of my garage in the winter. I'd rather have my cheeks on some styrofoam "the thicker the better, to a point", than have none at all. Especially with the doors open! My guess on the dead nestlings is not cold weather directly but I think the parents had to make a choice of survival. Perhaps their was not food in the area for all the Martins that had taken up residence. Many probably got along by the skin of their teeth.
Was there nest that looked like there were babies that might of made it? Nest with droppings and maybe a couple of small feathers? Still some kind of form to the nest? Were there any remnants of eggs or shell? Or do you think that all the nests that had eggs that hatched lost the young?
Just some more thoughts.
Just some more thoughts.
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Fred
Reg: 1/8 styrofoam, I don't know its R value. I'll look soon at home crepoe. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know how much it helps insulate walls or the interior compartment with the "front door" open. I know martins eagerly chose an insulated modified Trio house for me this year, over a non-insulated Coates -- doesn't mean much. We know the R value of aluminum is nothing, and I keep thinking of a martin or a group of them pressed against a cold aluminum wall on a night the temp drops into the 20s. And of older babies pressed against the sunny side walls in St. Louis when the temps hit upper 90s. Surely a small bit of styroafoam would help, and 1/8 might be the equivalent of 1/4 inch plywood? Like you, I'm more confident on the styroafoam nest bowls for helping keep babies warm. The fledgings I lost were sitting on bare aluminum in the thin nest.
(Brent -- sorry getting off thread here. )
John Miller, St. Louis, Mo
Reg: 1/8 styrofoam, I don't know its R value. I'll look soon at home crepoe. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know how much it helps insulate walls or the interior compartment with the "front door" open. I know martins eagerly chose an insulated modified Trio house for me this year, over a non-insulated Coates -- doesn't mean much. We know the R value of aluminum is nothing, and I keep thinking of a martin or a group of them pressed against a cold aluminum wall on a night the temp drops into the 20s. And of older babies pressed against the sunny side walls in St. Louis when the temps hit upper 90s. Surely a small bit of styroafoam would help, and 1/8 might be the equivalent of 1/4 inch plywood? Like you, I'm more confident on the styroafoam nest bowls for helping keep babies warm. The fledgings I lost were sitting on bare aluminum in the thin nest.
(Brent -- sorry getting off thread here. )
John Miller, St. Louis, Mo
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Guest
John, The two houses we put up this spring were new wooded ones. See photos at http://www.fishdeepcreek.com/PelicansPerch.htm
The poles were made of treated 4x4 lumber. The next day after we erected them the martins from our neighbors colony began to look in and show an interest.
Shane & Emil, there were no bugs or parasites that I saw when I removed the nests. Some other nests looked ok and didn't have dead fledglings so we think those nests were successful. The parents may have been predated on although we never see owls or hawks. I'm sure there is migratory hawk activity in the spring and we have plenty of ospreys flying back and forth from the ocean to the sound. We have never seen an osprey show interest in our martins or our neighbors birds.
The horses only rub on the poles occassionally and so it's not a constant activity on our poles.
Rick, As I mentioned above, other nests in the housing looked successful but no egg shells were found.
I appreciate all the responses and hopefully we'll be more successful next spring.
PS My gords are looking terrific in the garden and we'll have them up for our NC coast martins next year!
The poles were made of treated 4x4 lumber. The next day after we erected them the martins from our neighbors colony began to look in and show an interest.
Shane & Emil, there were no bugs or parasites that I saw when I removed the nests. Some other nests looked ok and didn't have dead fledglings so we think those nests were successful. The parents may have been predated on although we never see owls or hawks. I'm sure there is migratory hawk activity in the spring and we have plenty of ospreys flying back and forth from the ocean to the sound. We have never seen an osprey show interest in our martins or our neighbors birds.
The horses only rub on the poles occassionally and so it's not a constant activity on our poles.
Rick, As I mentioned above, other nests in the housing looked successful but no egg shells were found.
I appreciate all the responses and hopefully we'll be more successful next spring.
PS My gords are looking terrific in the garden and we'll have them up for our NC coast martins next year!
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Brent
It might be worth checking with the local weather service to see if there was a two to three day period of wind and rain -- if you can estimate the date of death within a few weeks. If the fledglings had feathers, you can estimate they were at least two weeks old. You may have had mostly subadult pairs, which nest a few weeks later than older adults. Maybe just look at weather mid June into July. Maybe your site is more weather susceptible -- being on the coast -- and you could orient entrances out of the prevailing wind. But sounds like good housing. Best of luck next year.
John Miller,
St. Louis, Mo
It might be worth checking with the local weather service to see if there was a two to three day period of wind and rain -- if you can estimate the date of death within a few weeks. If the fledglings had feathers, you can estimate they were at least two weeks old. You may have had mostly subadult pairs, which nest a few weeks later than older adults. Maybe just look at weather mid June into July. Maybe your site is more weather susceptible -- being on the coast -- and you could orient entrances out of the prevailing wind. But sounds like good housing. Best of luck next year.
John Miller,
St. Louis, Mo
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Laverne
- Posts: 2216
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:58 pm
- Location: TX/Alvin
- Martin Colony History: Erected 1st house in 1997. Birds were checking it out before Mike got down from the ladder. Six cavities had a little colony 1st year. Grown to 88 cavities all gourds with near 100% occupancy. Most important factor for success is rain = bugs.
Hello Brent.
I went to your website and I must say, "I love it!"
Scrolling down to the photo of the PM housing, I noticed that the cavities are probably not very deep. Modifying that house to provide longer cavities (such as 6 x 12) and perhaps insulating them and carefully caulking them to waterproof against a driving rain might help protect the nestlings from the elements. You might even consider a tunneled entrance. These provide a great deal of protection from weather and would be ideal.
The periods of poor weather which lead to starvation could be approached by including "tossing crickets to the birds" in your list of activities. I know I would love that one! You could even keep a stock of crickets in the freezer.
Honestly, I am being very serious about all this. Just having a little fun. Looks like heaven out there - one of these days...
Best wishes to you for many successful seasons in the future.
I went to your website and I must say, "I love it!"
Scrolling down to the photo of the PM housing, I noticed that the cavities are probably not very deep. Modifying that house to provide longer cavities (such as 6 x 12) and perhaps insulating them and carefully caulking them to waterproof against a driving rain might help protect the nestlings from the elements. You might even consider a tunneled entrance. These provide a great deal of protection from weather and would be ideal.
The periods of poor weather which lead to starvation could be approached by including "tossing crickets to the birds" in your list of activities. I know I would love that one! You could even keep a stock of crickets in the freezer.
Honestly, I am being very serious about all this. Just having a little fun. Looks like heaven out there - one of these days...
Best wishes to you for many successful seasons in the future.
Sincerely,
Laverne
Laverne
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Guest
I don't even have martins and don't know for sure what caused those babies to die, but I can tell you my experience with bluebirds with a common element. I gave my neighbor across the creek from me two bluebird houses one year, which he put up on the wooden posts bordering his horse pasture. Being that I know next to nothing about horses, I wasn't aware of the degree that they like to chew on wood. I checked the boxes and after several times noticed that the roofs were starting to look "weathered". At that point I still hadn't put two and two together and realized later on that the horses had been chewing at the boxes. The boxes did attract bluebirds; they laid eggs, which hatched. The babies were maybe a few days to a week old when I found them all dead. I eventually came to the conclusion that the bluebirds had abandoned their young because of the horses chewing on the boxes. Either the horses hadn't started chewing on the boxes right away or else the bluebirds were tolerant of it for awhile and left later on, but anyway when the babies were very young both nests were abandoned. The only other thing that could have happened was that the adults in both boxes got killed, which I kind of doubt. I decided to take the boxes down rather than risk that happening again. In the bluebirds' case, I think the horses were the cause of the dead nestlings, but I'm not sure whether or not that would be the case with your martin housing. Maybe the horses rubbed on it more than you or anyone else was aware of and the martins abandoned the babies because of that. Remember I'm only taking a guess. You could either move the martin housing and put it where the horses can't get at (but is there such a place since they are wild horses??) or else put some kind of fence/barrier up around the martin house to get the pole far enough away from the horses' reach. I suppose the weather could have been the cause of the nestlings dying if indeed it was the type of weather to adversely affect the care of them. I think it was probably either the weather or the horses but of course don't know which. Either way, I wouldn't want to horses rubbing against the poles, especially if they are causing them to lean. You could do as someone else suggested and check on what the weather was like around that time frame.