A Gourd I would never buy The Crescent gourd.

[Martin man RI]

I have followed a pattern with crescent gourds only They are a sad trap
to adult birds in a fight. I own a ton of different units this gourd has caused
numerous deaths of hormone driven adults. They get trapped and cannot escape and are killed because they cannot get out of the gourd fast enough
I am just glad all my units are not all crescent I have crescent houses and conley gourds and have never found a dead martin. If you own Crescent gourds check them for dead martins. You will be shocked.

Ray

[jr 2]

I have mostly all cresent gourds and houses and have never found a dead martin;i can tell the martins that are new too my colony as they have trouble getting in and out of the cresent too start;;;all my bo11p gourds have cresent tunnels with wing entrapment;;jr2

[Chuck4]

Do you have an example of "The Crescent gourd"? You must not have any Starlings. I'd love to see a photo of your 499 breeding pairs. Where I'm at I will only use crescents.

[Martin man RI]

Deaths are rare but they do happen. I have caught them and seem them in action. Starlings to fat up here never had a issue with them in any of the units used state wide Mine are all SREH. 60% conley 40% Crescent. Its the Crescent super gourds with the inside porch. I manage over 200 SREH units
spread out over 4 towns. The birds are making excellent progress too!

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Martin man RI, wing entrapment guards work very good, my suggestion is to use them. This is not a perfect world, and the crescent is not a perfect entrance. It can be made into an excellent entrance if you USE WING ENTRAPMENT GUARDS, please do so. Wing entrapment occurs when the entrance is on a house, or a wide tunnel when you do not use guards. Wing entrapment will not happen on a narrow tunnel, as most of my tunnels are made from 3in S&D pipe, and I have NEVER had wing entrapment.

I also use a lot of S&K tunnels, but I use wing entrapment guards on them, the guards are needed on them because the tunnel is nearly 5in wide

An older thread discusses the wing entrapment:

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewt ... 156#227156

[Martin man RI]

Emil, This is not wing entrapment. This is fights between two birds. Just in case someone see's this they will know. Since i have a super large volume of units. Crescents do work ok but i just dont favor them now since there
are conley holes. And I manage the sites and dont own some of the Crescent
gourds too. Just information thats all. And they are a popular gourd too
and used alot. Deaths are rare but do happen some years and its only as they first arrive after that they are fine once paired up and fights over. They work at nesting and care of young. And everything in fine. People often post about this and have no clue.

Ray

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

But you talk about Crescent gourds, what kind is that? If they do not get trapped at the entrance, just where do you find the dead martins? Sorry, but I am unsure about your analysis, martins fighting usually do not kill each other unless the are caught at the entrance, and get a wing entrapped.

I have heard of martins killing each other in a fight, but it is rare in my opinion. No matter how hard we try to prevent it, sometimes birds die for various reasons

[Matt F.]

One thing that is definitely needed, are wing entrapment guards to be added to all starling resistant Martin housing - gourds and houses - from the factory.
There are some that are doing this already.
However, there are others that are not.
Hopefully they will make changes to their fabricating processes, to include these guards in the final product.
Hopefully as well, the PMCA can meet with, and/or communicate this need, to the manufacturers that are not yet incorporating this Martin-life saving feature.

[Jose Rodriguez]

I have the clinger entrances. We have had no problems with Starlings and they are all over the place. Could be cause they made a home on the dead trees behind our neighbors lot. They go in and out the tree all day.

[Matt F.]

I think Ray was mentioning the "crescent gourds", because if the number of wing entrapment cases he's had to deal with.
Starling resistant entrances cut directly into a thin material (usually plastic or aluminum), pose an increased risk that Martins may become trapped.
Adding some thickness around the entrance hole via some type of guard, goes a long way in preventing these tragedies.

[Chuck4]

I think Ray was mentioning the "crescent gourds", because if the number of wing entrapment cases he's had to deal with.
Starling resistant entrances cut directly into a thin material (usually plastic or aluminum), pose an increased risk that Martins may become trapped.
Adding some thickness around the entrance hole via some type of guard, goes a long way in preventing these tragedies.

It sounds to me like he is saying crescents keep fighting martins from getting out fast enough. Personally I think it's not an issue for me. I don't manage so many birds. It implies such gourds are inherently inferior to non crescent gourds. But I think the evidence on the whole is to the contrary. I know that with my little group of martins that crescents are a blessing for them. Otherwise I'd have Starlings galore. Mine do have wing entrapment guards though. I have not had any wing entrapments in the three years I've had martins.

[Matt F.]

Mine do have wing entrapment guards though. I have not had any wing entrapments in the three years I've had martins.

Not to keep speaking on Ray's behalf, but I think that's what he's pointing out (though it may not have been specifically stated).
It's not any complaint of the crescent itself (which is a wonderful entrance), it is the combination of any starling resistant entrance (in this case it happened to be crescents) without any sort of entrapment guard.

[John Barrow]

Ray,
Every SREH entrance is based on the dimensions of the crescent entrance--every single one. The crescent entrance has endured and proved its worth for two and a half decades. If you are not having wing entrapment at the entrance and martins are being found dead inside then I would suggest two remedies. Add an interior porch and add nesting material up higher in the bowl. That will provide an easier escape route for any martins trapped inside that are trying to escape.

i think the great majority of entrapments in a gourd are caused by two birds fighting--wing entrapment by a bird trying to escape and being held in by a stronger inhabitant biting down on its backside. The overall condition of a bird will ultimately determine if it will survive. In earlier migration some older and weaker birds are unable to withstand the stress of a hard fight. That stress will likely explain why some birds die within a gourd with no relationship to wing entrapment.

Sorry you are seeing so much of this.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

John, I totally agree with you about martins not being able to easily exit some gourds..I have even found that the martins would not use the gourds at our site if they were difficult to exit. So much attention is placed on martins being able to enter, and virtually nothing is said about the martins being easily able to get out of a gourd.

I put ramps inside some of my gourds that were not being used, and the martins immediately started to use those gourds with the ramps. A bunch of nesting material will accomplish the same thing.

[DAVE]

For the past 3 days there were 2 ASY Males fighting over a Gourd and the Female. This morning the fight was over. One Male layed on the ground for about 20 minutes and then got up and flew away, the other sets on the Gourd.

This to me is the way nature is. They fought in and out side, in the air and on the ground. The most fit won.

I have all srea entrances with tunnels and guards. I have 19 Gourds on 3 Racks just 40 feet from my back porch. So it is easy for me to keep track of the Birds and learn their habits. Now some do confuse me at times but isn't that the way it's suppose to be
Dave

[Anthony Neira]

Ray, a week & 1/2 ago, I was looking at my houses , they all have excluder doors, I saw a ASY female go into one & I said " great", Then I see Another ASY female go into the same room, I said "oh,oh", a big fight started, as I ran to lower the pole to break it up, one female with one Glazed eye just came out & did a w.entrapment right before my eyes! She looked tired, as I removed her, the other one was sitting on the eggs but flew off. So I put the One eye f. Back in on top of the eggs, She looked to have Just laid an egg. I raised the house and waited. 45 min. Later, I lowered the house to find her dead on top of the eggs. After I took her out and raised the house, the Other female & male came back. Was the 1 eye f. in the wrong nest? Was she older but managed to lay an egg in another's nest? All I know is the couple are still there and there has'nt been a wing entrapment, except for that one fight.

[Matt F.]

That stress will likely explain why some birds die within a gourd with no relationship to wing entrapment.

Great point John.
I may have falsely assumed that Ray was talking about wing entrapment related fatalities.
He instead may have been referring to exactly what you are talking about - fatalities directly related to the fighting itself - not because of wing entrapment.