Need for insulated housing

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I am not a house person (I use gourds), but it does seem to me like the mfg companies should offer some insulated aluminum and plastic houses. They are needed for the heat, and needed up north for the cold. I can modify many such things because I am retired and have the tools, but there are so many people that don't have the tools, the skills, or the time to modify these houses. It seems to me that when people are losing 10% to 30% of their martin babies to heat or cold, that insulated housing should be given a good try. Sure its more expensive, but its much easier to do when the houses are made. Its harder to do when the houses must be modified. Why is it that martins will not use aluminum or plastic houses in some areas? It has to be the insulation problems.
I think that these houses would sell, that they may even help to replace the wooden houses that have better insulation characterics. Well insulated houses would be lighter than wooden houses and would not require modifications or painting.
These could be made so that they would be well ventilated in the summer, and the ventilation could be closed when its cold...
Just wishing, I suppose, but its time for better housies

[John Miller]

Emil

I been singing this tune for years. It's not rocket science, and styrofoam is not expensive -- maybe though the economy has slowed down manufactuers from doing innovations.

I've insulated a lot of Trio houses, and I even added some to the interior walls of one Trendsetter, which already has styrofoam in the upper floors and attic. I don't trust my ability to do temperature comparison tests -- insulated compared to uninsulated -- but I'd encouage Scott (other thread) to do so.

John M

[Linda Reynolds]

Emil and others, the unfortunate, and realistic truth is that manufacturers of martin housing and gourds already have molds or tooling into place. These molds, and factory tooling are very expensive ventures. The manufacturers are NOT going to add insulation or Styrofoam sheets prior to selling their product. If they did, the labor cost and cost of material would make the house so expensive that a landlord would not consider purchasing it. The housing that is already fitted with insulation is already being touted as expensive.

The manufacturers are getting by with offering us, the landlords, the basics, and then we, only if inclined to do so, or have a need to do so, will make the modifications necessary to insure the best housing is offered.

We cannot blame the manufacturers. They offer the best they can for a reasonable price. It is up to us to make it better if we think it needs to be enhanced. Unfortunately most new and uneducated landlords simply purchase a basic house or gourd, or rack and think it is adequate. I will bet 95% of landlords that purchase this housing, gourds or racks never-ever think about modifying it. That makes it a win for the manufacturer, and a possible half-win for the martins, and a no-win for the landlord that is uninformed and only learns later, that it can be better.

The way I see it, this is reality.

[Spiderman]

I do use wooden houses for our Martins. In the past, I've always been concerned with keeping them warm when they arrive which is usually around Febuary 1st. We have had a few that literally froze form the cold nights.

One modification I'm going to make this year is to cut a 1&1/2" hole in the back wall of the compartments to allow for cross ventilation during the hot summer months. I'll cover the holes with smalll screen and hopefully the birds will nest and the neighbor behind them won't be a problem.

I have 1/2" holes drilled in the ends of the houses but this year the ventilation wasn't enough.

[Virgil McCoy]

Emil, besides venting PVC gourds with 90 degree elbows how else are you modifying them? Do your birds seem to prefer the natural gourds?

[Bulldog1]

Check out the thermal testing article here:

http://chuckspurplemartinpage.com/

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Virgil, I prefer to use the following for venting, I like to have the vent hole as high as possible to get the best venting: I make them myself using 4in pvc pipe: The bottom gourd is an S&K gourd, I just removed the plug at the top of the neck.

For natural gourds, I cut off the top of the neck to get a large opening. I have not had an water problems using this method.

I have not noticed a large preference for natural gourds. I personally like to use them, I grow them, and enjoy turning gourds into birdhouses, and that makes them cheaper for me

I also make my own tunnels, I use cedar tunnels made from 5/8in fencing boards. All of my housing uses tunnels. By making the tunnel narrow, there will be no wing entrapment. Attach the entrance of choice with about 3 wood screws

[Matt F.]

Emil,
You're venting system looks awesome.
Not only can the air flow unrestricted up, and out, but I'll bet with a slight breeze, there is a drawing effect, like with a fireplace/chimney, that pulls even more hot air out.
Very nice.

[John Miller]

I don't see why an insulated house should add a lot of expense.

Whenever we buy electronics today, it's packed in the box in styrofoam molds that we toss out, so I'm thinking getting pre-shaped pieces must not be terribly expensive. Maybe some manufactuers could look into some kind of sytrofoam compartment inserts -- or -- pre-cut sytrofoam panels that could be easily glued in place as an option.

I have insulated several Trio and Coates houses with one-fourth inch thick styrofoam glued to the walls, and I've insualted plastic gourds wtih great stuff foam. I "think" martins like it better, but can't prove it, but I sure feel better about them in this housing on cold nights in April and hot days in July.

John M

[Guest]

It would not cost much9GUESSING HERE) to insulate each cavity be it in houses or individually. I would guess not over $2 or $3 to the consumer when being done by the present manufacturers,initial tooling would be an upfront cost that they must recover by passing that on to the consumer at a $1 additional cost to the once again ,the consumer.

The need for insulation in housing is probably not any greater now than it was 25 years ago.True we in the so called drought and PM's in some areas are suffering much more than those outside that area but we are getting thru it and I believe it is a cycle in the evolution of ongoing changes on earth that we will naturally accept as time goes by.

The number of landlords in the larger colonies would probably never pay to retrofit their housing with add on/upgrade insulation.The smaller colonies would I'm sure and that would primarily be the folks who can't accomplish the task on their own or are just getting started.

I have been addressing the heat factor but the cold is still a problem too especially to the north but those folls are either living with it thru the early season tough times and most are going with wood or styrofoam housing to combat this age old problem.

The manufacturers are not going to make that move unless they all did it at the same time as the non parity would be an upset to their economy and if by chance they did based on severe weather changes then most LANDLORDS would upgrade out of necessity but would I believe and have to do it on their own dime and not just trash what they have until it actually is unusable..That being the case the manufacturers would be waiting a long time to start recouping their up front monetary investment.Yes it looks like a Catch 22 to me presently,so if you are deeply concerned then you better learn how to upgrade your housing as the manufacturers are not headed or even thinking that way.Its a pure matter of economics,,,,,,,,,a successful business needs 15% profits as a minimum to stay afloat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you do the math,a $20 gourd would now be $24 to break even,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I don't think we will see any changes in the near future.

dick

[Virgil McCoy]

Emil, I sure like your modifications and will be in contact with you more as the season ends. I plan on taking my gourds down and begin adjustments at that time. One question on the S&K vent, how or what are you using to cap the air flow during colder weather ? I have 12 S&K BO-11P's (inner chamber type) with the same neck. I also will be seeking advice on modifications to the Troyer Horizontals not just venting but the entrance. We communicated briefly on that a couple of months ago. I totally dislike the Conley ll entrance and thinking of converting to crescent.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I never had a problem with martins freezing. I let the vents open all year long, and so far, it has worked. It would be rather easy to put in a piece of one of those swimming tool noodles if you want to close the vents

[Virgil McCoy]

Emil, the noodle is a great solution. As far as the PVC, are you using a schedule 40 water pipe cut in half ? As far as hanging them, are you running a mounting rod through the 3/4" conduit or some other method ? I remember seeing a picture post of your colony months ago but can't remember if there was a close-up of the way they were mounted.

[Fred Kaluza~MI]

Hey don't you guys remember the study performed a couple years ago? I think realistically the air temp inside was within a degree or two of the outside air all the time primarily because of the openings to each gourd or compartment. If Martins used "doors" the result might be different. Having a raised floor may be of value in the early spring when the air-gap could keep cold birds from losing some heat through the bottoms but otherwise, I'm thinking insulation is not of much use unless you plan on using so much that the daytime highs and nighttime lows get averaged out. I wonder if anyone's ever placed a temperature probe inside an 8" cavity in the middle of a 24" diameter tree trunk just to see how well the air temp gets averaged? Otherwise, a puff of warm air from a passing breeze into the opening of a compartment or gourd and all the insulation is negated instantly.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Virgil, the pvc pipe is 4in Sewer & Drain Pipe, usually called S&D which is sometimes stamped on the pipe. Its lightweight and much better for martin housing because of the price and weight.

On the 3/4in pvc thru the neck of the gourd, the arms that I use are the 1/2in EMT conduit (used for covering wiring in commercial buildings). The conduit is relatively cheap, it doesn't bend or sag, and doesn't hardly rust.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Fred, I have seen such studies and they probably are correct. The thing that I see however is that martins will conregate in well insulated gourds when it gets cold at night, often 6 to 12 in one gourd. Why do they get into such gourds on those cold nights? It may be that the last one in blocks the entrance, and thus they keep warmer.

Also in Canada, martins will not normally use an aluminum house, yet they have had great success with the T14 housing and insulated gourds.

There must be something involved that the study that you suggested does not cover, something is wrong with it! It covers actual temps, but what is missing?